DBWI : Eastern-European Communism.

[Axeman]

In our timeline Communism was prevalent in The New World, Eastern Asia, and of course Western-Europe. The USSNA espoused its revolution was following the path of Marx, with the developed Western-World moving onto Socialism, while the East, which had been lagging behind, was still catching up. Throughout the Cold War the East developed, the West stagnated, and Communism collapsed.

My question is this; What if it was reversed? What if Communism had been done on China's Mainland, Russia, and Eastern Europe? Would the ability to industrialize from start with a planned economy effect communism in the long term versus having to re-order already advanced economies in the West? Or would the outcome be even worse for Communism without having an industrial base to start with? Would the mass spaces of the Eurasian landmass make up for the vast spaces of the Great Plains and the Yukon in North America?

Any input would be nice.

 

[Hrvatskiwi]

I don't see how Communism is supposed to arise in Eastern Europe. Communism has always appealed more to industrial societies, driven by discontent with the perceived injustices of urban life. Even Marx's theory suggested that a society has to be at the "advanced capitalism" stage before it can go socialist. Eastern Europe was underdeveloped and reactionary, as is exemplified by the rise of the Pan-Slavic Kolovrat movement in Russia, which pushed the world into the Second World War.

 

[Incognito]

Yeah, Eastern Europeans and Chinese are too conservative and respect their authorities too much (just look at the general reverence, dedication and fearfulness towards the Sheng Dynasty in China and the Romanov Tsars in Russia) to buy into Communism. Such ideologies appeal to the Pie-In-The-Sky liberals who want to look at their cake and eat it too. The whole tragedy of the Cold War era western world can be summed up as such:

"My boss is not paying me enough. Surely I, an undereducated worker with the aid of few privileged "intellectuals" armed with some pseudoscience & way too much time on their hands, can take over the means of production and run everything better & more fairly than people who studied and trained for business? All I have to do is shout "spread the wealth!" and wish really, really hard and everything will work out!". Five minutes later everything is burning and the economy crumbles.

OOC: if Yuan Shikai succeeded in creating his own dynasty, would they be referred to as "Hongxian Emperors"/"Hongxian Dynasty" or would it be called something else?

 

[EternalCynic]

You can't be so deterministic. Remember the French Revolution broke out in Europe's most centralist and autocratic state.

OOC: Hongxian would be the Regnal name. It won't be the dynasty's name any more than Elizabeth is Britain's dynasty name.

 

[Incognito]

OOC: Hongxian would be the Regnal name. It won't be the dynasty's name any more than Elizabeth is Britain's dynasty name.

OOC: what would it be the dynasty name then? I tried to imply in my last post that Yuan Shikai did create a successful dynasty.

 

[EternalCynic]

OOC: what would it be the dynasty name then? I tried to imply in my last post that Yuan Shikai did create a successful dynasty.

OOC: Since Yuan Shikai crowned himself "Emperor of China" without naming a dynasty, we don't know. Maybe "Sheng" for "bountiful" would be a good fit.

 

[Incognito]

OOC: OK thanks, I'll edit my earlier post

 

[RCAF Brat]

Yeah, Eastern Europeans and Chinese are too conservative and respect their authorities too much (just look at the general reverence, dedication and fearfulness towards the Sheng Dynasty in China and the Romanov Tsars in Russia) to buy into Communism. Such ideologies appeal to the Pie-In-The-Sky liberals who want to look at their cake and eat it too. The whole tragedy of the Cold War era western world can be summed up as such:

"My boss is not paying me enough. Surely I, an undereducated worker with the aid of few privileged "intellectuals" armed with some pseudoscience & way too much time on their hands, can take over the means of production and run everything better & more fairly than people who studied and trained for business? All I have to do is shout "spread the wealth!" and wish really, really hard and everything will work out!". Five minutes later everything is burning and the economy crumbles.

OOC: if Yuan Shikai succeeded in creating his own dynasty, would they be referred to as "Hongxian Emperors"/"Hongxian Dynasty" or would it be called something else?

And then they use their secret police to keep the peons from throwing their red Lords and Masters to the curb. And they use their army impose their tyranny upon their neighbours.

You will note that there has not been one case where the Red Tyrants came to power with the consent of the people. (IIRC there were only two successful Red revolutions. Who both went on to conquer all of their neighbours.) Nor has there been even one case where they were removed from power without bloodshed. I remember watching party hacks and federals swing from lampposts as a boy in '94. Brutal, yes, but they all had it coming.

Things today aren't as good as we'd like them to be, even with the discovery of oil, but at least we the people are now truly the masters of our own fate.

 

[Axeman]

I don't see how Communism is supposed to arise in Eastern Europe. Communism has always appealed more to industrial societies, driven by discontent with the perceived injustices of urban life. Even Marx's theory suggested that a society has to be at the "advanced capitalism" stage before it can go socialist. Eastern Europe was underdeveloped and reactionary, as is exemplified by the rise of the Pan-Slavic Kolovrat movement in Russia, which pushed the world into the Second World War.

Well Eastern European capitalism developed after the depravities of Western Capitalism become apparent and were only "solved" with a bloody revolution in just about every major Western European country and then a world war to top it off.

Perhaps if Eastern Europe industrializes better under Russia and the West does a little bit worse so the growth is more even, there can be a level-ish growth and thus more learning? Then have something go horribly wrong in Russia which I guess would become some sort of Eurasian Communist Empire.


But the main question I want to address is the industrialization. Marx wasn't right about everything (obviously), so what if you had built from the ground up in the East somehow on Centrally Planned Economies, would they last longer or shorter than the Centrally Planned Economies of the West?

 

[Ninja Bear]

Impossible. Even when Communism was but a glint in Marx's eye, the West already worshiped at the false altar of Democracy. Even without Marx to give them structure, the spoiled children of the Western nations would inevitably turn on the few strong hands they had to guide them - their "Titans of Industry," I believe was the term - and grow effete and indolent under Economic Democracy by some other name.

Their inferior Western values of self-gratification and rejection of proper authority doomed their countries to rot and die. Fortunately, God has blessed the world with our Empires to pick up their pieces.

 

[Axeman]

Impossible. Even when Communism was but a glint in Marx's eye, the West already worshiped at the false altar of Democracy. Even without Marx to give them structure, the spoiled children of the Western nations would inevitably turn on the few strong hands they had to guide them - their "Titans of Industry," I believe was the term - and grow effete and indolent under Economic Democracy by some other name.

Their inferior Western values of self-gratification and rejection of proper authority doomed their countries to rot and die. Fortunately, God has blessed the world with our Empires to pick up their pieces.

I see the Imperial Firewall of China doesn't keep out gov. sponsors.

 

[Ninja Bear]

I see the Imperial Firewall of China doesn't keep out gov. sponsors.

You are in China, then? I had expected all the men of this English-speaking forum to be English in one of His Imperial Majesty the Tsar's re-education zones, or perhaps American refugees taking advantage of His Imperial Majesty's endless charity. What reason do you have for knowing English?

But no, the latest Chinese attempt to hide in isolation does not "keep out" your protectors; never fear. The RuNet is after all a Russian invention, and its mainframes are all in Russia; it would be impossible for the Chinese to block our government without severing their own ties.

 

[Axeman]

You are in China, then? I had expected all the men of this English-speaking forum to be English in one of His Imperial Majesty the Tsar's re-education zones, or perhaps American refugees taking advantage of His Imperial Majesty's endless charity. What reason do you have for knowing English?

But no, the latest Chinese attempt to hide in isolation does not "keep out" your protectors; never fear. The RuNet is after all a Russian invention, and its mainframes are all in Russia; it would be impossible for the Chinese to block our government without severing their own ties.

I am English, not Chinese or American.