DBWI: Dueling Illegal

[HammerofWar]

We all know the value of a good Duel to the death as authorized by American law standards. From the infamous Grant vs. Lee duel that decided the Civil War to the Ken Starr vs. Clinton duel and even the Mick Jagger vs. Malcolm Young engagement, duels have ended disputes and saved our country and cultural icons time and again.

My question is what if in the early days of our country, dueling to the death was found to be illegal? How would the shape of our country differ?

(I wanted to do a slightly off-beat one)

 

[Dolan]

less proliferation of swords, and carrying them as a dressing accessory for gentleman?

I meant, after the famous Burr vs Hamilton, there were efforts to delegitimize duelling as a way to solve dispute between gentlemen. The result is a compromise, and while duel with pistols (firearm/ranged weapon) ended up being illegal, duels with blades in close melee isn't, and in most case, the code proscribe that the winner shall be satisfied with drawing the first blood in most cases.

It was said that Lee, knowing that drawn-out civil war would be devastating to both sides, secretly thrown the match and let Grant slashed across his face, ending the Civil War in three months.

 

[marktaha]

Wouldn't have been Grant and Lee at the beginning. I rather like the idea of Lincoln and Davis settling it with pistols over the Mason- Dixon line!

 

[Historymaster]

Maybe Trial by Combat in cases where proofs are unsufficient and there are legitimate suspects of prejudice against the accused would fall out of use; So no State Champions and no fencing course in Police Academies.

 

[Analytical Engine]

How would one then resolve disputes of honour otherwise, my good sir?

Perchance, a competition by penmanship, oratory or perhaps even through the form of song?

 

[Dolan]

Wouldn't have been Grant and Lee at the beginning. I rather like the idea of Lincoln and Davis settling it with pistols over the Mason- Dixon line!

Well, at that point, Pistol dueling was already partially outlawed (if de facto tolerated for less severe cases), and Military Men often prefer cold steel to really test their mettle compared to firearms (who were derided as unnecessarily lethal compared to say, duel to first blood by blades).

It might be surprised you, but Lincoln is an anti-dueling proponent and refused Davis' offer to cross swords as it violated his principles. Grant vs Lee duel, and subsequent Southern Surrender, however, is literally handing the Union a quick, relatively bloodless victory against the South, who due to the honor code involved, agreed to immediately emancipate their slaves. Lincoln actually demanded Grant be court-martialled but the rest of the Unions literally shut him down, pointing out that accepting the result of the duel as valid meant sparing thousands, and probably even more men from deaths and misery on the battlefield, and thus that was often said to be the event that cemented dueling tradition in The Americas for good.

 

[Historymaster]

And then USA half a century later had one of the greatest dueler of all times as a president, Teddy Roosevelt; How many duels did the man fight and win in his life? More then 1000, I read somewhere?

 

[Dolan]

And then USA half a century later had one of the greatest dueler of all times as a president, Teddy Roosevelt; How many duels did the man fight and win in his life? More then 1000, I read somewhere?

He's still arguably the most memetically badass president ever to his supporters, or barbaric killer to his detractors.

All because he was the one responsible for waiving "duel to the death" as natural conclusion in most cases, instead of limited to feud and crimes of passion, and thus causing Europeans to revile the tradition in the Americas as barbaric.

 

[ASUKIRIK]

He's still arguably the most memetically badass president ever to his supporters, or barbaric killer to his detractors.

All because he was the one responsible for waiving "duel to the death" as natural conclusion in most cases, instead of limited to feud and crimes of passion, and thus causing Europeans to revile the tradition in the Americas as barbaric.

Not exactly, while Roosevelt's "Death Clash" theory did further alienated the Europeans, it was the death of Emperor Napoleon III of France at the hands of King (later Kaiser) Wilhelm I of Prussia (later German Empire) that caused the Anti-Dueling Sentiment to flare up in Europe (even in Germany, the one who supposedly winning said duel, because putting the fate of entire Empire on a single man's swordsmanship prowess is kind of... irresponsible).

The fact that Napoleon III refused to accept defeat and pressed "Duel to The Death" while Wilhelm I already scored the first blood (by lightly stabbing Napoleon's left shoulder), caused the integrity of the Codex Duello to be put into question (by having the Emperor of France refusing to abide by it, nonetheless). Kaiser Wilhelm regrets being forced to fatally wound his French counterpart also played a role too.

 

[Dolan]

the integrity of the Codex Duello to be put into question (by having the Emperor of France refusing to abide by it, nonetheless). Kaiser Wilhelm regrets being forced to fatally wound his French counterpart also played a role too.

Well, Duelling is only illegal in Northern Europeans, their Empires, and other states within their influence. Duelling tradition is still somewhat tolerated in Italy, and still within the legal codes of the Iberians.

It did cause some problems in the international relations of the Europeans, especially when they tried to meddling in China and Japan, both Empires who have their own native duelling traditions (The Youxia and Bushido, respectively), and thus, grew closer to the Americans over their mutual sense of honor.

 

[Comte de Dordogne]

Not exactly, while Roosevelt's "Death Clash" theory did further alienated the Europeans, it was the death of Emperor Napoleon III of France at the hands of King (later Kaiser) Wilhelm I of Prussia (later German Empire) that caused the Anti-Dueling Sentiment to flare up in Europe (even in Germany, the one who supposedly winning said duel, because putting the fate of entire Empire on a single man's swordsmanship prowess is kind of... irresponsible).

The fact that Napoleon III refused to accept defeat and pressed "Duel to The Death" while Wilhelm I already scored the first blood (by lightly stabbing Napoleon's left shoulder), caused the integrity of the Codex Duello to be put into question (by having the Emperor of France refusing to abide by it, nonetheless). Kaiser Wilhelm regrets being forced to fatally wound his French counterpart also played a role too.

Since then in France, in 1875, the law nicknamed "Richelieu" was published which punishes by death anyone who practices a duel.
And indeed, the death of Napoleon III became a common joke in France, his descendants still managed to transform the duel into a heroic sacrifice in the face of "the Teutonic monster".

 

[West]

Wouldn't have been Grant and Lee at the beginning. I rather like the idea of Lincoln and Davis settling it with pistols over the Mason- Dixon line!

Davis did issue a challenge and Lincoln did accept and then stated as the challenged party he had right of weapons and chose broadswords over a pit. Davis then retracted his challenge and decided to settle the issue by forcing the country to go through a civil war instead. This is why you do not see any statues dedicated to Davis in the south, and why media protrales of him even by lost causers are always so well harsh.

Southenors to this day consider him to be a gutless coward.

 

[ASUKIRIK]

Since then in France, in 1875, the law nicknamed "Richelieu" was published which punishes by death anyone who practices a duel.
And indeed, the death of Napoleon III became a common joke in France, his descendants still managed to transform the duel into a heroic sacrifice in the face of "the Teutonic monster".

Indeed, as the place where the Last Mortal Duel between Royals happened, in Strassburg, the capital of the then disputed region of Elsass-Lothringen (now being an Autonomous Region of the German Empire), said city ended up becoming the place of the International Peace Conference between The Northern European States.

It has been said that the Strassburg Peace Conferences has been responsible for keeping Europe at peace for the entirety of the 20th century and until now.

 

[Historymaster]

In Italy, duels are legal if practiced strictly to first blood, and in a controlled, medical-assisted environment; It is also used to resolve civilian and administrative disputes; I tremble thinking how congestionated our tribunals would be without this solution.

 

[Kerney]

I think it has kept politics politer. I mean both parties train their canidates in dueling as does most of the press. Seeing the Woodard Nixon duel, Clinton and Gingritch.

Seeing the duel costing the last President re election because his opponent actually died was heartbreaking. He was the best President EVER.

Ooc--Edited to protect present day politicans from bodily harm. Note that law enforcement objects to using swords on present day politicans.

 

[Dolan]

OOC: No current (post 2000ish) Politics please.

IC: Anyone want to discuss why now only single-edged blades are the acceptable Dueling weapons while double-edged swords are banned? American Cavalry Saber, Japanese Katana, Chinese Dao, etc...

 

[DanMcCollum]

After Hamilton/Burr, as others have stated, there were efforts to delegitimize dueling and eventually lead to the outlawing of pistols.

What many haven't taken into consideration though, was that one of the reasons dueling continued to remain popular, especially with swords, was a result of the Louisiana Purchase. The prominence of dueling amongst the gentleman class of New Orleans and other French settled territories captured the fancy of the young nation whic was integrating those territories - despite the efforts of then-Territorial Governor LaFayette to bring the practice to an end.

So, maybe the only way to outlaw dueling entirely would be to avoid the Louisiana Purchase, or to mitigate the number of French settled there? (either pre-American purchase, or stop New Orleans from becoming a center of Anti-Napoleon Immigrants during the LaFayette era?)

 

[Historymaster]

The Jackson Presidency put a big stick in the wheel of any anti-dueling initiative, even if the former general career as a duelist was not as umblemished as Teddy Roosevelt's will be (Davy Crockett made sure of it).

 

[West]

there is also the fact that the vast vast majority of duels end in first blood, its incredibly rare for people to die.

 

[Analytical Engine]

there is also the fact that the vast vast majority of duels end in first blood, its incredibly rare for people to die.

I can't speak for the US, but over here paramedics are required to be on hand, just in case.