DBWI: Dominion of Palestine Elections: Elections: Who are YOU voting for.

Who are you voting for in DoP Elections

  • Conservative (The Main seculr Conservative party.)

    Votes: 6 14.0%
  • SDP (Social Democratic Party)

    Votes: 10 23.3%
  • Likud (Voice of Jewish/Zionistt Intrests in the Dominion

    Votes: 8 18.6%
  • Hama's (Islamic socialsit Party, affiliated with RESPECT at Imperial level)

    Votes: 1 2.3%
  • RESPECT (George Galloways party, Socialist)

    Votes: 1 2.3%
  • The Greens

    Votes: 3 7.0%
  • Christian Democrats

    Votes: 5 11.6%
  • Socialsit Workers Party

    Votes: 5 11.6%
  • British Imperial National Party/National Front

    Votes: 1 2.3%
  • Silly Smelly Sock party of Palestine

    Votes: 1 2.3%
  • Autonomy Coalition

    Votes: 1 2.3%
  • Palestinian Free Traders

    Votes: 1 2.3%

  • Total voters
    43
  • Poll closed .
(OOC: This is the same TL as the who are YOU voting for Thread)

Hi there all, well, witht he imperial election and all, i was jsut wondering what people had in mind for the crucial Palestinian Parlimentary elections coming up soon.
 
Been canvassing for Socialist Worker all day, mate. This just may be our chance to break RESPECT and the SDP's grip on the left.
 

Sachyriel

Banned
[OOC: since it's May day, let's all go SWP :p]

IC:

Only the Socialist Worker Party can actually do anything about this 8-hour dork day that's killing me....
 
SDP, just like at the Imperials.

I must wonder, though: how many of the Christian Democrat voters are actually Christians (constituting a reasonably large minority as they do), and how many are Jews and Muslims attracted to their moderate by socially conservative platform?

Likud is attractive, of course, but it's just a niche party. The SDP is ultimately much more important at the Imperial level.
 
Why do people hate the Zionists so much? They're as much a part of Palestine as any other group. I'm voting for them because they need a voice.
 

yourworstnightmare

Banned
Donor
I'll vote Likud, it's time for us Jews to gather and take this country as our own. We will create a beutiful Israel and enslave those inferior Arabs.
 
Why, oh why, did you forget the Palestinian National Democratic Movement for Change? :mad: I don't support them, but Voice of Palestine* is saying that they might be a surprise winner here, making the Right, Left, and Centre together very worried - the Centre because it fears that crucial votes might be taken away from them, the Right for obvious reasons :)rolleyes:), and the Left, also for obvious reasons :)rolleyes:).

OOC:
*Voice of Palestine is the umbrella name of the domestic radio networks of the public broadcaster Palestine Broadcasting Service (PBS).
 
Why do people hate the Zionists so much? They're as much a part of Palestine as any other group. I'm voting for them because they need a voice.

Let me tell you this, since you sound like someone who is new to Palestine. Take this from me, since I've lived in Palestine all my life, and in various areas of Palestine as well - Jaffa, Jerusalem, Nazareth, Haifa, and Eilat, for starters - and in neighbouring Trans-jordan. From experience, only British people would vote for either the Conservatives, the SDP, the Free Traders, the Christian Democrats, the Greens, or the **spits on ground** National Front - and even then, they bring their old prejudices from Britain with them. Thus, the impact of those parties are pretty minimal, at best. Plus, no self-respecting Jew would ever vote for the Zionists - just because someone's ancestors were of "European" ancestry doesn't mean that they are superior than anyone else - indeed, my ancestors were originally from Spain, and they were expelled by Ferdinand and Isabella of Castile y Aragón in 1492. That's European, right? Apparently, not to the Zionists - only Ashenazi ancestry counts as "European" :)rolleyes:), which obviously excludes the Karaites, the Mizrahim, and Sefardim like me. They are pretty much an arm of the British's policy of "divide and conquer", which no one likes. I'll bet you that the British are arming the terrorist groups on both side of the coin to further that policy.

They also have their own delusional, elitist views that they think should be imposed on people, which makes most people angry. Take the PBS, for example. Now currently, it's a "public broadcaster", which means that it should be accessible to everyone, right? Not to the Zionists - no, they want to represent "high culture", which leaves it and the British as the only audience for the PBS. They deplore the Voice of Palestine (with the exception of its Music Programme) and the TV1 and TV2 channels for catering to what they see as "low culture" (especially when it shows advertising, due to PBS's chronic budget problems) - yet how else is one going to make public broadcasting accessible to all Palestinians? They also even criticize TV3, which was made specifically for the propagation of the elitist views of both the British and the Zionists! :)eek:) It doesn't help that the Ashkenazim are pretty much trying to squeeze out the Sefardim and Mizrahim from having a voice in society, which is partly why we have so many privately-owned radio stations and TV channels. I listen to Voice of Palestine sometimes, as a force of habit, and I might occasionally watch TV1, but most of my radio listening and television viewing is from the private sector, which do a very good job. The private sector, obviously, makes the Zionists nervous, since some of what they offer undermines the Zionists' own arguments - so they start trying to shut down private TV channels, which gets many people angry. Take the shutdown of the highly-popular Radio Jerusalem Television channel (RJTV), which was admired by everyone, including me. (Where else in Palestine are you going to get Shabbat services on TV, for those who can't make it to synagogue, or Christian services for those who can't make it to church, or Friday noon prayers for those Muslims who can't make it to the masjid, for example? PBS doesn't do that.) When the Zionists attempted to get RJTV shut down, the whole city of Jerusalem shut down as there was not only one strike after another, but everyone was protesting in the streets. Even though RJTV was eventually shut down and replaced with TV3, people don't like the intrusions that the Zionists have been making - especially if you are Jewish. For a bunch of people who claim to espouse Marxist views, they are pretty much in the bourgeoisie rather than the proletariat.

And don't get me started on their views of a Jewish State - every Jew knows that only the Messiah would establish the Jewish State, and thus the view of "we must establish a Jewish State now" is tantamount to heresy. Oh, if only the Turks were back . . . . . . . :( :( :( :( :( :(
 
Why do people hate the Zionists so much? They're as much a part of Palestine as any other group. I'm voting for them because they need a voice.

Well, the Stern Gang and the Irgun, as well as the Revisionist Zionists in general, put everyone off a little. I'm as proud a Zionist as any, but let's be honest - the British have done alright by us. Obviously, I would prefer an independent Jewish state, but I'm not entirely convinced that they could really do an incredibly better job than the current Dominion. Thus, I prefer to cast my vote where it might affect the entire Empire instead of just my home.

Dan1988 said:

That's not entirely fair. The Ashkenazim were the heart and soul of Zionism, and there's only a few hundred thousand Sephardi and Mizrahi Jews in the Dominion anyway, compared to the several million Ashkenazim; after all, the Mizrahim and Sephardim never really got kicked out of their countries wholesale the same way, right? To call the Ashkenazi Zionists "colonists" is precisely correct, but why is that bad? Ashkenazi Jews have contributed some ridiculous portion of the world's Nobel laureates, and other illuminaries. Sephardi Jews, Mazrahi Jews, and Arabs haven't really done anything since the Reconquista. An imposition of European technology, Enlightment-era values, and proper culture seems a good thing to me; frankly, I'm appalled by all the people like you that foolishly cling to your primitive traditions.

You make yourselves second-class citizens.
 
That's not entirely fair. The Ashkenazim were the heart and soul of Zionism, and there's only a few hundred thousand Sephardi and Mizrahi Jews in the Dominion anyway, compared to the several million Ashkenazim;

Umm, I dispute those numbers - if I remember the official census correctly, a vast majority of Jews are Sephardim or Mizrahim, and many of them had been living in Palestine for centuries. The Ashkenazim are just a minority, like the British - but a minority that doesn't understand the real situation in Palestine.

after all, the Mizrahim and Sephardim never really got kicked out of their countries wholesale the same way, right?

That's because most of us Sephardim/Mizrahim have been living here for centuries, and we have thrived here. None of us are from other countries, since those countries never kicked out their Jewish communities - unlike Britain. :rolleyes:

To call the Ashkenazi Zionists "colonists" is precisely correct, but why is that bad?

Because you guys fail to truly understand the situation in Palestine. We Sephardim and Mizrahim know what the situation is, because we live in Palestine. When a minority oppresses the majority . . .

Ashkenazi Jews have contributed some ridiculous portion of the world's Nobel laureates, and other illuminaries. Sephardi Jews, Mazrahi Jews, and Arabs haven't really done anything since the Reconquista.

That's because you guys fail to understand and appreciate the work we have done to get you guys out of the darkness - we have contributed much to the world. If it wasn't for Sephardim, Mizrahim, and Arabs of multiple Gentile persuasions did not preserve much Western civilization, whilst adding on our own contributions to the mixture, you wouldn't have been able to have your precious Nobel laureates in the first place. True, some of our work is written in languages that certain people consider "barbaric", but we have worked for the world and have thrived. We thrived under the Turks and we should thrive under the British, but it's people like you that prevent us from doing so, by attempting to turn us into second-class citizens.

An imposition of European technology, Enlightment-era values, and proper culture seems a good thing to me; frankly, I'm appalled by all the people like you that foolishly cling to your primitive traditions.

Hey, we do not have primitive traditions! :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: Do you call having a strong support network via an extended family primitive? If so, I shudder to think how you guys cope with living if the extended family is removed from the picture. To call others "primitive" when they clearly are not is just being ethnocentric. After all, many of our traditions are not unique to the area - would you call Italians or Greeks primitive for sharing many of the same traditions we Palestinians, whether Jewish or Christian or Muslim, have?

By the way, we've already had our imposition of European technology and Enlightenment-era values before you guys came, but at least that imposition took local situations into account. If you have a chance, read about the تنظيمات, or Tanzimat - now THAT was an exciting time. All you guys did was undo the Tanzimat and replace it with a standard colonial economy which does not take into account the local situation, and your interpretation of Enlightenment-era values which ignores the progress made under the Tanzimat. Whatever happened to equality under the law without have race, religion, gender, etc. taken into account, for example? That was a Tanzimat innovation, replaced by favouring certain groups over others. To think otherwise is to be delusional and elitist, and elitism will not be accepted in Palestine. When your lot is able to appreciate our culture to the point of pronouncing our languages properly, a concept that seems to not get its grasp among you guys.

You make yourselves second-class citizens.

No, we do not - it's your lot that's doing it. And face it - Zionism is not going to work in Palestine. It has lost its luster as people are seeing it for what it really is. Once we Palestinians get into power - and there is a very strong likelihood that this will happen, trust me on this - then we will make sure that we will bring back the innovations of the Tanzimat and modernize it. We will separate and declare a Republic of Palestine, since we can handle our own affairs quite well without the imposition of colonialism. Only then will we be able to get out of colonialism. Mark my words - this is most likely what's going to happen, and we will not be willing to entertain Zionism for anything than what it really is - a tool of the British to divide and conquer. (The same goes for the extremists of all faiths, as well.) The Palestinian National Democratic Movement for Change is currently leading in the polls, and yet certain people here seem to deny the reality - and remember, the party leader is a Sephardi that is becoming very popular among most Ashkenazim (since, thank goodness, there are Ashkenazim who are backing away from Zionism, with a good deal of ex-Zionists becoming Palestinian nationalists), Sephardim, Mizrahim, Muslims, and Christians alike. There's now talk of a PNDMC Government being a reality, which some of us would welcome with open arms.
 

Keenir

Banned
what happened to the Tanzimat Party? (no, I can't remember the full name - I just woke up)
 
Umm, I dispute those numbers - if I remember the official census correctly, a vast majority of Jews are Sephardim or Mizrahim, and many of them had been living in Palestine for centuries. The Ashkenazim are just a minority, like the British - but a minority that doesn't understand the real situation in Palestine.

You realize that the Jewish population of Palestine was measured in the thousands before Zionism, right? (OOC: This is from OTL. From what I can tell, the PoD isn't going back in time far enough to make a significant Mizrahi or Sphardi Jewish population in Palestsine. Not saying it's couldn't happen, but it'd need to be back in the later 1400s/early 1500s for Sphardim, and only a little later for Mizrahim)

That's because most of us Sephardim/Mizrahim have been living here for centuries, and we have thrived here. None of us are from other countries, since those countries never kicked out their Jewish communities - unlike Britain. :rolleyes:

For what I can tell, the majority of Sphardi and Mizrahi Jews continue to live in their ancestral lands in North Africa, the Middle East, and Persia. There was some talk about wholesale kicking them out after the establishment of the Dominion, but from what I recall the British put an end to that.
[/quote]

[quote[
That's because you guys fail to understand and appreciate the work we have done to get you guys out of the darkness - we have contributed much to the world. If it wasn't for Sephardim, Mizrahim, and Arabs of multiple Gentile persuasions did not preserve much Western civilization, whilst adding on our own contributions to the mixture, you wouldn't have been able to have your precious Nobel laureates in the first place. True, some of our work is written in languages that certain people consider "barbaric", but we have worked for the world and have thrived. We thrived under the Turks and we should thrive under the British, but it's people like you that prevent us from doing so, by attempting to turn us into second-class citizens.
[/quote]

Hooray! The Arabs had a Golden Age! That was what, 600 years ago? 700? Oddly, no progress has been made since then. I honor Arab contributions to medicine, chemistry, mathematics, and engineering, just as I honor ancient Indian and Chinese contributions to the same fields. And yet, the Industrial Revolution did not strike any of these ancient innovators; they were all content to hold on to their technology which - while it was certainly more advanced than Europe's when it was invented - is horribly out of date.

Hey, we do not have primitive traditions! :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: Do you call having a strong support network via an extended family primitive? If so, I shudder to think how you guys cope with living if the extended family is removed from the picture. To call others "primitive" when they clearly are not is just being ethnocentric. After all, many of our traditions are not unique to the area - would you call Italians or Greeks primitive for sharing many of the same traditions we Palestinians, whether Jewish or Christian or Muslim, have?

"Primitive" refers to your continued treatment of women, to your "traditional" economies, your refusal to make full use of modern technologies, and your outlook in general (OOC: Mizrahi Jews should, without the solid assimilation they underwent, essentially be Arabs. This guy (me) doesn't have a very high opinion of Arabs)

By the way, we've already had our imposition of European technology and Enlightenment-era values before you guys came, but at least that imposition took local situations into account. If you have a chance, read about the تنظيمات, or Tanzimat - now THAT was an exciting time. All you guys did was undo the Tanzimat and replace it with a standard colonial economy which does not take into account the local situation, and your interpretation of Enlightenment-era values which ignores the progress made under the Tanzimat. Whatever happened to equality under the law without have race, religion, gender, etc. taken into account, for example? That was a Tanzimat innovation, replaced by favouring certain groups over others. To think otherwise is to be delusional and elitist, and elitism will not be accepted in Palestine. When your lot is able to appreciate our culture to the point of pronouncing our languages properly, a concept that seems to not get its grasp among you guys.

Right, the Ottoman Empire was entirely egalitarian under the Turks, and everyone was happy. That's why Laurence of Arabia was able to foment so much unrest, right?

No, we do not - it's your lot that's doing it. And face it - Zionism is not going to work in Palestine. It has lost its luster as people are seeing it for what it really is. Once we Palestinians get into power - and there is a very strong likelihood that this will happen, trust me on this - then we will make sure that we will bring back the innovations of the Tanzimat and modernize it. We will separate and declare a Republic of Palestine, since we can handle our own affairs quite well without the imposition of colonialism. Only then will we be able to get out of colonialism. Mark my words - this is most likely what's going to happen, and we will not be willing to entertain Zionism for anything than what it really is - a tool of the British to divide and conquer. (The same goes for the extremists of all faiths, as well.) The Palestinian National Democratic Movement for Change is currently leading in the polls, and yet certain people here seem to deny the reality - and remember, the party leader is a Sephardi that is becoming very popular among most Ashkenazim (since, thank goodness, there are Ashkenazim who are backing away from Zionism, with a good deal of ex-Zionists becoming Palestinian nationalists), Sephardim, Mizrahim, Muslims, and Christians alike. There's now talk of a PNDMC Government being a reality, which some of us would welcome with open arms.
[/quote]

Zionism doesn't work - except, I see nearly 10 million Ashkenazi Jews, who according to some Nazi documents were scheduled for wholesale genocide, like your precious Turks did to the Armenians. Now, I'm not going to use this theoretical "Final Solution" as any sort of argument - I doubt even the Nazis would have been capable of perpetrating atrocities on that scale - but the fact remains that without emigration to Zion, those Jews would very likely have had their rights systematically stripped, and ended up under very poor conditions indeed. My grandfather used to tell me stories about living in Berlin as the Nuremburg Laws got passed...

While I understand that some of you would like to return to your previous existence under the Ottomans, where roving bands of Muslims could (and did!) randomly attack Jewish settlements, and where a woman caught having permarital sexual relations would get killed by her brothers for "honor", and you didn't have any civilized people around to show you how wrong these things are, it won't happen. Zionism is a colonial success story: a sparsely populated backwater of the Ottoman Empire was turned into a thriving and important member of the Commonwealth. Tel Aviv is a financial center second only to London and New York; the Technion and the Hebrew University are such excellent schools that people come from all over the Empire to learn; and Palestinian oranges and textiles are accorded some of the finest in the world. An independent Palestine is not necessarily a bad thing, but an independent Palestine under your precious "Tanzimat" and "old ways" very quickly becomes a backwater again.
 
(OOC: Regarding:)

(OOC: Mizrahi Jews should, without the solid assimilation they underwent, essentially be Arabs. This guy (me) doesn't have a very high opinion of Arabs)

(OOC: To an extent, but the Sephardim (i.e. my character) would essentially be Spaniards, as well. BTW, Nazism might not exist in TTL, since this is an offshoot of another TL, so this:)

except, I see nearly 10 million Ashkenazi Jews, who according to some Nazi documents were scheduled for wholesale genocide,

(OOC: and the like would essentially contradict the other TL, even though the focus of that other TL is the Southern California Crisis. Thus, the PODs for this:)

(OOC: This is from OTL. From what I can tell, the PoD isn't going back in time far enough to make a significant Mizrahi or Sphardi Jewish population in Palestsine. Not saying it's couldn't happen, but it'd need to be back in the later 1400s/early 1500s for Sphardim, and only a little later for Mizrahim)

(OOC: would be accounted for. Yes, I interpolated the Tanzimat into this, but that's because the guy is an idealist. I'll address the other point in-character, but remember that this character is a bit of an idealist, but is very suspicious of Ashkenazim and the British.)

For what I can tell, the majority of Sphardi and Mizrahi Jews continue to live in their ancestral lands in North Africa, the Middle East, and Persia. There was some talk about wholesale kicking them out after the establishment of the Dominion, but from what I recall the British put an end to that.

Well, we in Palestine have long-standing Sephardi and Mizrahi communities that have been in the majority among non-Muslims for a long time. Any talk of kicking out native communities after the establishment of the Dominion is just that - talk - that is essentially Zionist propaganda, because such thing never happened, at least to my knowledge. There was, however, talk of kicking out the long-standing Maronite and Orthodox Christian communities from Palestine and repatriate them to Lebanon and Greece, respectively, in exchange for their Jewish communities; this was along with the planned expulsions of the Alawites and the Druze. Fortunately, that didn't happen.

More later - the election results are coming in.
 
Well, i never thoguht this would create such debate, but who are these "Nazis" you speak of. Are they some sort of Jewish Sect? (OCC ;))
 
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