DBWI: Did "Barbarossa" ever have a chance of success?

Stephen

Banned
As much as it hurts me to say given how much we yanks and soviets rag on each other a german victory over the USSR is ASB. Well credit where credits due the nazis were worse then the commies, and at the very least it kept us from being involved in yet another european war. So it all worked out in the end I guess.

You dont really take all that Soviet propaganda seriously do you? extermination camps get realistic.:rolleyes: And besides even if the Nazis were able to kill every single Jew in the world it would still be peanuts compared to the estimated 100 million political prisoners executed in soviet Europe.
 

loughery111

Banned
I keep hearing you have to pass a idological purity test in order to be allowed on the web over in the soviet areas. I think said test keeps a lot of the more relaxed russians off the net. That said as bad as the russians can be its nothing next to flame wars between the northern and southern chinese republics.

God, no. Nothing's as bad as them. Though in fairness, having thrown off KMT one-party rule and actually started to develop economically in the last three decades, South China is feeling more and more confident by the day. Their trolls are both fewer and less annoying than they were ten years ago. The Manchurians, in contrast... are just insane; only the Democratic Korean Republic of the Yalu's carefully selected, ideologically pure trolls make them look good.



You dont really take all that Soviet propaganda seriously do you? extermination camps get realistic.:rolleyes: And besides even if the Nazis were able to kill every single Jew in the world it would still be peanuts compared to the estimated 100 million political prisoners executed in soviet Europe.

Where do you get your estimates? 100 million people would have been most of the people then IN the portions of Europe taken by the Soviets after the Second Great War. They took Germany up to the Rhine and puppetized the Balkans as far south as Greece and up to the Italian border; the only thing that saved Greece and Turkey was a unified declaration from Britain, France, Italy, and Spain that taking anything more would mean war.

The actual (realistic) estimates I've seen are the direct murder of some 5 million former Nazi Party members and 1-2 million other "reactionary elements" in Germany, and about 3 million elsewhere in Europe. Of course, that leaves out the roughly 15 million who starved to death following the forced de-industrialization of Germany, and the 1.2 million solders that the Free Germans (quite credibly, IMO) claim were taken prisoner rather than killed in combat, and were never heard from. So while the death toll is still horrifying (and this leaves aside questions of the Holodomor and all the other horrors the Soviets inflicted upon their own people), the mid-range estimate is still around 26 million, not 100 million.

As for what the Nazis may have done if the Soviets hadn't crushed them so quickly; they were indeed "concentrating" the Jews, Gypsies, homosexuals, and others in work camps that had little concern for their welfare. The last to be liberated had apparently been personally ordered by Hitler himself to make sure not one of the inmates was taken alive; as the Soviet forces were moving to take it the guards opened fire on the prisoners, killing some 20,000 before they were, in turn, overrun by the Red Army. This should be an indication that, despite their own horrifying crimes, the Soviet accusations that the Third Reich was planning a genocide are likely true or close to true.

OOC: Let me explain for a moment: China is divided in two, with the CCP taking Manchuria and a few other odds and ends just to its south, and the KMT holding the rest, except for a Tibet including parts of Qinghai and a Xinjiang that's a Soviet satellite. Korea, on the other hand, is mostly unified; the North Chinese occupied a buffer along the Yalu River after the US defeat of Japan in the Pacific War, while American troops took the surrender of the remaining Japanese forces in the peninsula.
 
What if Herr Hitler had rescinded his order to transfer General Erwin Rommel on Feb 12, 1941 to Africa with elements of the 5th Light Division and the 15th Panzer Division and cobble up two more Infantry/Motorized Divisions and transferred all Logistical supplies that would have gone to German Units that would have gone to Africa and constituted a new Armoured Corp under same General Erwin Rommel's command and attach his Korp to Army Group North for the drive towards Riga and possibly Leningrad??

Would One more Armoured Korp with all the logistical supplies that would have been sent to Africa now diverted for Rommel's own Panzer Corp have assisted Army Group North in their drive to reach these two targets??

If you explain how the germans support this extra panzercorps?

Problem is, the germans hat 100.000 cars and trucks with 28.000 different types! If you really want to push german army in 1941 start the plot in 1934, and do the right thing (say, hitler accept the daimler-benz-offroad-truck as a standard) and give this army something like the 2to-Truck of the US-Army. With this mobility, the russians are toast. Most problems came from lackung supply support (in the beginning)... so a much better supply level for the army (with standard spare parts, wait, spare parts at all), the german army can reach faster and farer... maybe far enough to beat the sowjets... but not far enough to win this war. For this - you need to win the hearts of the people... suppressing them is NOT the right way to win their hearts.
 
If you explain how the germans support this extra panzercorps?
Any and all of the logistical supplies & manpower that would have originally gone thur Italy via their railLine & Trains and would then either be sea-lifted and/or air-transported across the Mediterranean Sea to Italian controlled Libya in North Africa to support DAK Rommel will instead be funnelled to his Armored Corps possibly now attached to Army Group North...

The thing would be this..

Would one extra Armoured Panzer Corp ;
commanded and run shotgun by General Rommel;
had assisted Army Group North in their advance northwards toward Riga & Leningrad and expiated the capture of Riga and possibly also Leningrad or at least crushed the Soviet pocket that was west of Leningrad before the Soviets could had build their anti-tank ditches and firm up the outer defense grids just outside the outskirts of Leningrad...?
 
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