DBWI Creation of Mongolian Empire

What if, by some miracle (short of ASB) the tribes of the Mongolian steppe managed to get united by the end of the XII century and conduct a successful conquest of China on the East and territories to the West and South all the way to include most of the modern Russia, Ukraine, Iran, Iraq and most of Turkey? Something like what you can see on the map below (as you understand, the "campaigns" on the map are purely imaginable):
map-mongolia-history-mongol-empire-04.jpg


Clearly, this is a pure fantasy but what would it take to accomplish this task and what would be the effects of its implementation?
 
The basic idea seems plausible to me. After all, the Göktürks did basically the same thing.

Although by the time these "Mongols" roll around, the Khazar and Ghaznavid Empires are in their respective golden ages, so maybe the western conquests are a bit more of a stretch.
 
The what?

Aren't the Monggol just an obscure branch of the Shiwei Khitans? How could that group conquer all of Xianbei Region? The tribal divides are far too significant to overcome. While tribes like the Khamags, Khereids, Tatars, Khitans, Barga and others shared similar languages, Zhongguo foreign policy always ensured they were divided against each other, and tribal rivalries would've made unification too difficult anyway.

This seems ASB.
 
The basic idea seems plausible to me. After all, the Göktürks did basically the same thing.

Although by the time these "Mongols" roll around, the Khazar and Ghaznavid Empires are in their respective golden ages, so maybe the western conquests are a bit more of a stretch.

Khazars are out of picture for quite a while but Ghaznavid Empire is a problem. Any idea how it could be dealt with?
 
The what?

Aren't the Monggol just an obscure branch of the Shiwei Khitans? How could that group conquer all of Xianbei Region? The tribal divides are far too significant to overcome. While tribes like the Khamags, Khereids, Tatars, Khitans, Barga and others shared similar languages, Zhongguo foreign policy always ensured they were divided against each other, and tribal rivalries would've made unification too difficult anyway.

This seems ASB.

Well, as I stated from the very beginning, it is a very low probability but I disagree that this can be done only in ASB framework. If it was simple, what would be the challenge?
 
Hmm, seems like in this example it requires the Mongols repeating over the entire Steppe what the Cumans/Comand/Camans did over just the western end. The previous resulted in the Avar, Magyar, and Bulgarian settlements before the Cumanian Empire replaced them. Could we then see a Mongolian Empire in eastern Europe instead? Do we see a later Ruthenian Resurgence?
 
I'm sorry OP, but this is ASB. It'll be like me saying that Rome would end up creating one of the largest and most influential empires in the world instead of remaining the backwater that was swallowed by Carthage OTL.
 
It's hard for me to envision a Mongol Empire honestly especially one of this size. Now I'm not saying a Mongol State isn't possible although it's would be difficult trying to unite and lead so many tribes and peoples all with their own cultural norms, religions or variations on religions, laws, and distinct identities some of them not Mongol at all but belonging to related and alternative tribes. I think the best chance of forming a Mongol Nation is in the early 1200's with a Chief Qara Khitai sources identify as Jamukha. He was in the process of solidifying power among the various factions at about that time creating a confederation of 13 tribes including Tatars, Naimans, Merkit, Jadaran, and Taichuud, probably the most powerful groups on the steppe at that time. Collectively these groups came together and declared Jamukha to be their Gur Khan which means something like Universal Leader, basically an elected king. Just as it looked like the Mongols and their allies were on the brink of military expansion a civil war broke out with a potential usurper named Temujin, sadly they both died at a confrontation called the Battle of the Thirteen Sides. The tribes and sub-tribes quickly started bickering among themselves and fell into chaos. They were quickly absorbed by a coalition of the more sedentary states around them made of Jin, Western Xia, and Qara Khitai. Although amazingly the Eastern Khitan tribes managed to resist this annexation uniting under their cultural identity and memory of their former Empire and created small kingdom that would eventually invade and conquer Korea.

So assuming that Jamukha survives the battle that took his life and was victorious I imagine he would quickly bring the rebelling tribes into line with the new order, placing his own people in charge of those regions or groups. With his rival dead or exiled it would be fairly easy to secure his own power base and turn the Confederacy into a Hereditary Kingdom modeled on his allies in the Western Khitan and enact tribute and taxes from his new subjects. It would be hard to miss the fact that the north is wide open for settlement by this formerly tribal peoples, only needing to find and follow the rivers for the best and most fertile land. Not to mention the riches of the forests provided by hunting and trapping, Mongolian Siberia. As for the south and west if the Military Elite are patient they can wait for disunity and rebellion in neighboring states and break away whatever chunks they can hold onto and incorporate into their new Mongol Nation and identity. Although this tactic could be used against them as well. Cards played right though they might be able to expand near to Kwarezm or Song. Though it would be nearly impossible to hold that territory for long. They'd also be limited by the sheer size and variety of terrain in Asia deserts, mountain ranges, tundra, grasslands, swamps, and forests. Not to mention all the climate and weather conditions in those areas no army can prepare for everything.

All in all a Mongol Kingdom or State is entirely possible the leader of this state might even call himself an Emperor in the tradition of the Song influenced nations around him but this would be an Empire in name only even at its strongest. I see it more a regional power with deep rivalries among its neighbors navigating a landscape of shifting alliances and cut throat politics. It's unique history and cultural identity will make it stand out from the other East Asian states though and could have lots of impact locally. Just another nation state created in the wake of the final collapse of the Han dominated mega states of the past.
 

Maoistic

Banned
The what?

Aren't the Monggol just an obscure branch of the Shiwei Khitans? How could that group conquer all of Xianbei Region? The tribal divides are far too significant to overcome. While tribes like the Khamags, Khereids, Tatars, Khitans, Barga and others shared similar languages, Zhongguo foreign policy always ensured they were divided against each other, and tribal rivalries would've made unification too difficult anyway.

This seems ASB.
This. Over a million times.
 
Well, maybe have the Liao Dynasty somehow fall apart instead of conquering the nirth of China?

It almost did in our worldline-Emperor Tianzuo was nearly captured by the Jurchen rebels led by Aguda during the tail end of what modern Western historian Jurchen Rebellion in 1125; he only remained in power because of a pair of significant mistakes by the rebels.....which led to Aguda's death in 1127 in our world. Not that it stopped the Song Dynasty from overrunning them a century later in the 1240s, though, but the Liao Dynasty's approach to that area of foreign policy may well have prevented the Monggols from ever becoming an immediately serious threat to their neighbors(they were certainly starting to get there by the late 12th Century), even if the incredible expansion all the way west to what is now Ruthenia and Moldavia, as well as western Anatolia, would have been highly unlikely(seriously, it'd be hard to see them even making it to the Ural Mountains; their ferocity was significantly outmatched by their numbers and relative lack of centralized leadership).

(Speaking of the Liao, it could well be interesting to see what a Kara-Khitai founded a century earlier than in our universe would have looked like.)
 
Hmm, seems like in this example it requires the Mongols repeating over the entire Steppe what the Cumans/Comand/Camans did over just the western end. The previous resulted in the Avar, Magyar, and Bulgarian settlements before the Cumanian Empire replaced them. Could we then see a Mongolian Empire in eastern Europe instead? Do we see a later Ruthenian Resurgence?

The Gokturks came closer (but not too close) to the designated goal around VI century.

280px-Tujue_Khanate.png


The Cumans, as you correctly noticed, got close enough to the "task" in the Western direction but they did not get far enough to the East and South and in the Western direction they did not control the areas to the North of the Steppe belt (Rus).

250px-Cumania_%281200%29_eng.png


So you need the AH "Mongols" (just for the sake of terminology) to conquer everything to the East and then all to the West up to, approximately, western border of the modern Ukraine. To simplify the task, some of these territories may end up as the vassal states and not the integral parts of the Empire.
 
It's hard for me to envision a Mongol Empire honestly especially one of this size. Now I'm not saying a Mongol State isn't possible although it's would be difficult trying to unite and lead so many tribes and peoples all with their own cultural norms, religions or variations on religions, laws, and distinct identities some of them not Mongol at all but belonging to related and alternative tribes. I think the best chance of forming a Mongol Nation is in the early 1200's with a Chief Qara Khitai sources identify as Jamukha. He was in the process of solidifying power among the various factions at about that time creating a confederation of 13 tribes including Tatars, Naimans, Merkit, Jadaran, and Taichuud, probably the most powerful groups on the steppe at that time. Collectively these groups came together and declared Jamukha to be their Gur Khan which means something like Universal Leader, basically an elected king. Just as it looked like the Mongols and their allies were on the brink of military expansion a civil war broke out with a potential usurper named Temujin, sadly they both died at a confrontation called the Battle of the Thirteen Sides. The tribes and sub-tribes quickly started bickering among themselves and fell into chaos. They were quickly absorbed by a coalition of the more sedentary states around them made of Jin, Western Xia, and Qara Khitai. Although amazingly the Eastern Khitan tribes managed to resist this annexation uniting under their cultural identity and memory of their former Empire and created small kingdom that would eventually invade and conquer Korea.

So assuming that Jamukha survives the battle that took his life and was victorious I imagine he would quickly bring the rebelling tribes into line with the new order, placing his own people in charge of those regions or groups. With his rival dead or exiled it would be fairly easy to secure his own power base and turn the Confederacy into a Hereditary Kingdom modeled on his allies in the Western Khitan and enact tribute and taxes from his new subjects. It would be hard to miss the fact that the north is wide open for settlement by this formerly tribal peoples, only needing to find and follow the rivers for the best and most fertile land. Not to mention the riches of the forests provided by hunting and trapping, Mongolian Siberia. As for the south and west if the Military Elite are patient they can wait for disunity and rebellion in neighboring states and break away whatever chunks they can hold onto and incorporate into their new Mongol Nation and identity. Although this tactic could be used against them as well. Cards played right though they might be able to expand near to Kwarezm or Song. Though it would be nearly impossible to hold that territory for long. They'd also be limited by the sheer size and variety of terrain in Asia deserts, mountain ranges, tundra, grasslands, swamps, and forests. Not to mention all the climate and weather conditions in those areas no army can prepare for everything.

All in all a Mongol Kingdom or State is entirely possible the leader of this state might even call himself an Emperor in the tradition of the Song influenced nations around him but this would be an Empire in name only even at its strongest. I see it more a regional power with deep rivalries among its neighbors navigating a landscape of shifting alliances and cut throat politics. It's unique history and cultural identity will make it stand out from the other East Asian states though and could have lots of impact locally. Just another nation state created in the wake of the final collapse of the Han dominated mega states of the past.

A very likely scenario but it does not address the main issue: conquest of the areas beyond the Steppe. Jamukha did unite these tribes but he did not create a new military system capable of a big-scale conquest and his title was rather honorary because each of these tribes preserved a complete freedom of actions all the way to a freedom of getting out of the alliance: each of the subordinated khans preserved a complete control over his troops which still had been sticking to the old tribal system (aka, very little discipline and not too much in the terms of administrative organization beyond using traditional decimal system).


How about (admittedly unlikely) scenario in which Temujin is building his army based upon the "people of the long will" (aka, those who are loyal exclusively to him, no matter from which tribe they came), then, surviving some defeats, manages to keep building up such an army and eventually uses it to defeat all opposition in the Steppe.

Conquest of China is, obviously, problematic but how about him starting with just the big-scale raids and later began using animosity between the native population and the ruling Jurchens? Just a theoretical idea. ;)
 

Vuu

Banned
The biggest elephant in the room is China and Persia - the steppes and Sibir are easy enough to acquire, and the tribes uniting isn't that far-fetched
 
Have a scion of a relatively obscure tribe to unite the para-Khitan tribes under his leadership, make a unified law and set to conquer a relatively large part of the world to the point of starting a genetic legacy.

And I potentially think of the Borgijn clan, who in OTL established their reputation as the source of some of the most loyal tribes in the Khitan Empire. Even the most suitable royal brides.

Seems ASB, right?
 
Wait a minute, so you're seriously telling me that a bunch of backwards, pelt-wearing tribals in the steppes of inner Asia are going to be able to topple the Chinese empires (Jin and Sung), the Choson, the Khwarezmian Empire, the Seljuks and the Rus principates? And then mount successful campaigns against Hungary and Poland, two of the strongest kingdoms in Europe?

This would be nonsense even if the various steppe tribes were somehow united. The entire population of the steppes is significantly lower than that of the Jin Empire, let alone the Song. Not to mention they have no siege engines with which to take the great fortified cities of China. Heck, they probably couldn't even mount successful raids in the countryside of China, since they would basically have to either cross the Gobi in force, or defeat the Xi Xia Empire (at the time the height of Tangut power), or fight through Jurchen territory and wheel around, where Liaodong would block their advance to Beijing.

Maybe, just maybe they could defeat Khwarazem, but I doubt it. I can't see the steppe nomads taking the cities of Transoxiana.

Throw in the political fragmentation that has always been the way of the steppe peoples, and this task becomes impossible.
 
I don’t know about your borders, but I could see it controlling the steppe, maybe Rus or China. If, as the other guys said, they unite, and if China’s weak or preoccupied, they could probably do some raids near the border. Maybe on one of those they get gunpowder? If they can get it to work, or better yet make primitive guns, they could go pretty far. And Rus was fairly weak- Cuman tribes and Lithuanians could occasionally raid them. Maybe a plague hits?
 
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