DBWI: Could the German Civil War be averted?

I've seen a lot of threads that try to theorize about the Soviet Federation of Germany won the German Civil War (1930-1935) but could the Civil War be completely avoided? If so, what effects would this have? Would the German Republic still eventually restore the Kaiser regardless? I think it's a given that the Rhineland and East Prussia never become independent.
 
It depends on who gets power. The 1932 elections would have been key. Fringe parties such as the Nazis were completely annihalated during the war.

I could see Germany go down the path of revanchist type government if the radicals took power.

If the civil war was avoided (which would have been near impossible in my opinion) it depends on that election as to the direction of the country.
 

samcster94

Banned
I've seen a lot of threads that try to theorize about the Soviet Federation of Germany won the German Civil War (1930-1935) but could the Civil War be completely avoided? If so, what effects would this have? Would the German Republic still eventually restore the Kaiser regardless? I think it's a given that the Rhineland and East Prussia never become independent.
Someone made a timeline with that Hitler guy, but he was too weird.
 
It depends on who gets power. The 1932 elections would have been key. Fringe parties such as the Nazis were completely annihalated during the war.

I could see Germany go down the path of revanchist type government if the radicals took power.

If the civil war was avoided (which would have been near impossible in my opinion) it depends on that election as to the direction of the country.
I doubt the Nazi Party could ever rise to prominence, it just had too many problems going for it. For starters, its leader Adolf Hitler was assassinated and the party became very unpopular as a consequence and fascism always proved to be too radical and the only fascist nation to ever exist, Italy, overthrew Mussolini after World War II. However, I agree that the German Civil War was very influential in the demise of the Nazis by turning the DVFP and its successor, the KRP, into the dominant conservative force in Germany.
 
By all rights, the Soviet Federation should have won, the problem was that Stalin's USSR simply didn't want to intervene, he was too busy at home and afraid of overreach. A less cautious leader, and we might have a different war.

OOC: Are you hoping for roleplay elements into this or just a traditional/academic-style DBWI?
 
By all rights, the Soviet Federation should have won, the problem was that Stalin's USSR simply didn't want to intervene, he was too busy at home and afraid of overreach. A less cautious leader, and we might have a different war.

OOC: Are you hoping for roleplay elements into this or just a traditional/academic-style DBWI?
If Trotsky didn't get assassinated not only would the Soviet Federation win, but World War II wouldn't be the absolute disaster it was in Russia in OTL that ended in the 2nd Russian Civil War and dissolution of Russia into independent nations and rival factions.

OOC: I don't really mind it if there's role playing, if you want to do it go for it unless someone has an objection to that.
 
If Trotsky didn't get assassinated not only would the Soviet Federation win, but World War II wouldn't be the absolute disaster it was in Russia in OTL that ended in the 2nd Russian Civil War and dissolution of Russia into independent nations and rival factions.

OOC: I don't really mind it if there's role playing, if you want to do it go for it unless someone has an objection to that.

The Eastern Federative Socialist Republics survive to the present day, proudly. We hold the line against the various capitalist factions of Western Russia. I wouldn't write out the Federative Republics, especially considering that the Nazis only fell when they went beyond the Urals, and it was with the aid of the Americans that the USSR, our ancestors, bravely defeated the Japanese, even as they were crushed in the West.

Still, the USSR as we knew it was gone.
 
The Eastern Federative Socialist Republics survive to the present day, proudly. We hold the line against the various capitalist factions of Western Russia. I wouldn't write out the Federative Republics, especially considering that the Nazis only fell when they went beyond the Urals, and it was with the aid of the Americans that the USSR, our ancestors, bravely defeated the Japanese, even as they were crushed in the West.

Still, the USSR as we knew it was gone.
The EFSR is a bit of an exception to the chaos in post-war Russia that basically became a bunch of proxy wars between British and the Chinese during the Cold War. The EFSR, on the other hand, was quick to join the Community of Pacific Nations and democratized turning it into one of most prosperous nations in the Chinese Bloc. That being said, it's not perfect. The transition to democracy was unstable at times and even today, as far as I'm aware, there's a lot of debate between how involved the Communist Party should be in democratic affairs and how free the factions within the Party should be.

That being said, I live in Greater California and you seem to be an easterner yourself so I'm sure you're more knowledgeable in this area.
 
The EFSR is a bit of an exception to the chaos in post-war Russia that basically became a bunch of proxy wars between British and the Chinese during the Cold War. The EFSR, on the other hand, was quick to join the Community of Pacific Nations and democratized turning it into one of most prosperous nations in the Chinese Bloc. That being said, it's not perfect. The transition to democracy was unstable at times and even today, as far as I'm aware, there's a lot of debate between how involved the Communist Party should be in democratic affairs and how free the factions within the Party should be.

That being said, I live in Greater California and you seem to be an easterner yourself so I'm sure you're more knowledgeable in this area.

To be fair, the EFSR is still a very left-leaning democracy. Most of the opposition parties are token or wouldn't change that much given power - much like bourgeois democracy. Make no mistake, we are still socialist, and we're better off for it. We still follow Marxism-Leninism, and this idea that we've somehow abandoned our socialist routes is ridiculous. Our limited free market experiments have been helpful, but we are in no danger of capitulating to capitalism any time soon. We see this as more like the New Economic Policy than 'proper' capitalism, anyway. Besides, the Republic of China is often at odds with the EFSR, they just don't act like it to foreigners. Even if the RoC has more geopolitical power at the end of the day.

The major parties of the EFSR are as follows:

The Communist Party of the EFSR (CPEFSR) - Marxism-Leninism

The Marxist Party of the EFSR (MPEFSR) - Controlled opposition, anything from Trotskyites to 'left-wing' communists

The Communist Party of the EFSR - Centrist (CPEFSR - C) - Marxism-Leninism but with even less tolerance for diversity or neo-Marxist thought than the CPEFSR.

Liberty - The social-democrats and cooperative-fans who seek, well, 'democratic socialism' - or milquetoast social democracy.



Infiltrated parties:

The Communist Party of the EFSR - Traditional (CPEFSR-T) - What you in the west might call "National Bolsheviks"

The National Socialist Party of the EFSR - The name makes them clear enough.


Freedom - Not to be confused with Liberty, Freedom is a mess of centrists, conservatives of varying stripes, libertarians, and the odd anarcho-capitalist. There's more NKVD agents in this party than legitimate members.

The Communist Party of the Forgotten Many (CPFM) - A bloc for minorities, mostly, still full of NKVD spies, but not as much as Freedom


Banned parties:


Various terrorist groups

Various secessionist groups

Various non-CPFM parties for the rights of non-ethnic Russians

The Eastern Nazi Party
 
Last edited:
To be fair, the EFSR is still a very left-leaning democracy. Most of the opposition parties are token or wouldn't change that much given power - much like bourgeois democracy. Make no mistake, we are still socialist, and we're better off for it. We still follow Marxism-Leninism, and this idea that we've somehow abandoned our socialist routes is ridiculous. Our limited free market experiments have been helpful, but we are in no danger of capitulating to capitalism any time soon. We see this as more like the New Economic Policy than 'proper' capitalism, anyway. Besides, the Republic of China is often at odds with the EFSR, they just don't act like it to foreigners. Even if the RoC has more geopolitical power at the end of the day.

The major parties of the EFSR are as follows:

The Communist Party of the EFSR (CPEFSR) - Marxism-Leninism

The Marxist Party of the EFSR (MPEFSR) - Controlled opposition, anything from Trotskyites to 'left-wing' communists

The Communist Party of the EFSR - Centrist (CPEFSR - C) - Marxism-Leninism but with even less tolerance for diversity or neo-Marxist thought than the CPEFSR.

Liberty - The social-democrats and cooperative-fans who seek, well, 'democratic socialism' - or milquetoast social democracy.



Infiltrated parties:

The Communist Party of the EFSR - Traditional (CPEFSR-T) - What you in the west might call "National Bolsheviks"

The National Socialist Party of the EFSR - The name makes them clear enough.


Freedom - Not to be confused with Liberty, Freedom is a mess of centrists, conservatives of varying stripes, libertarians, and the odd anarcho-capitalist. There's more NKVD agents in this party than legitimate members.

The Communist Party of the Forgotten Many (CPFM) - A bloc for minorities, mostly, still full of NKVD spies, but not as much as Freedom


Banned parties:


Various terrorist groups

Various secessionist groups

Various non-CPFM parties for the rights of non-ethnic Russians

The Eastern Nazi Party
National Bolsheviks still exist in the EFSR? I thought they were long gone ever since the United Workers of the Russian State was conquered.
 
National Bolsheviks still exist in the EFSR? I thought they were long gone ever since the United Workers of the Russian State was conquered.

They're like cockroaches, you can't get rid of them no matter how hard you try. They get a lot of the nationalist crowd and the would-be Nazi crowd, and people see them as being a more legitimate party than the weak National Socialist Party or the skinhead Eastern Nazi Party.
 
Let me tell you, a civil war like this hasn't occurred since the Helsinki episode of 1919, and I think we all remember how THAT turned out!
 
Right you are.

Actually, we're currently on the third Russian Civil War, assuming you count the Siberian War of Independence as the Second Russian Civil War. For the record, the EFSR is the only group in the Third Russian Civil War who fields female soldiers, pilots, and naval officers, and it's served to bolster our admittedly sort of meager numbers, especially against the revisionist dogs in the UWRS (For as long as that lasted) and against the Russian Empire in the West. The Nationalist Ukranians and Polish-Baltic Union have also served to keep the already strong Russian Empire fighting. The Third Russian Civil War is sadly a proxy war between the Republic of China and the forces of Reaction.

That said, we have fought valiantly, the book The Unwomanly Face of War by Svetlana Alexievich is a very good piece on the EFSR's female soldiers and what they go through, being an oral history piece. Meanwhile, Out of Bullets: A Russian War Story is a fascinating look at the war in general, a memoir by Nikolay Zakharovich, about his time in the Federative Army (Previously the Red Army until 1980).
 
By all rights, the Soviet Federation should have won, the problem was that Stalin's USSR simply didn't want to intervene, he was too busy at home and afraid of overreach. A less cautious leader, and we might have a different war.

OOC: Are you hoping for roleplay elements into this or just a traditional/academic-style DBWI?

It should have won because some foreign tyrants and their local catspaws wanted it? The German people had a will of their own, and they chose to stand up and resist the forces of Marxist tyranny in the name of their individual liberties and traditions. You're not exactly making a good case against the somewhat... derogatory sterotypes about Slavic women by so vocally advocating foreign domination.

Not that I necessarily would have restored the Imperial household if the decision had been in my hands, but the plebiscite in old Brandenburg was overseen by international observers from across the political spectrum and deemed legitimate, especially after they received the endorsement of the heroic Freikorpbund who's efforts were so key and protecting the defenseless civilians from the leftist radical "militas" (More like armed mobs looking for an excuse to loot, in my opinion). The controversy really did create some huge political rifts in the German Republic that lead to the permanence of its separation in the crisis following the Civil War. Still, they were at least respectful enough to allow the dissenting provinces (Namely Bavaria, The Rhenish Republic, Free Hamburg, Prussia) to refuse to ascend to the new Empire without trying to drag them back in with military force, which is more than can by said for the Commies in Russia and Nanking. Mao never cared how many people had to die, suffer, or get their arms twisted into doing as he pleased as though they were merely his little toy soldiers, so long as the survivors were good little peasant-communists.

I'll admit, I'm perhaps a bit biased towards the right. My family and homeland, the glorious Kazaki Khanate, owe their independence to the brave volunteer citizen-soldiers of The Ataturk's "Wolf Packs" and Polish rifles, after all. But that was merely to provide training and a vital force-multiplier backbone in our hour of need: we were willing to fight and die to break the Muscovite yolk and never stooped to sending delegates to beg like dogs before dictators to send in million-man armies on live radio, or accepted huge "gifts" of gold in exchange for slavishly following their demands on our domestic policy.
 
It should have won because some foreign tyrants and their local catspaws wanted it? The German people had a will of their own, and they chose to stand up and resist the forces of Marxist tyranny in the name of their individual liberties and traditions. You're not exactly making a good case against the somewhat... derogatory sterotypes about Slavic women by so vocally advocating foreign domination.

Not that I necessarily would have restored the Imperial household if the decision had been in my hands, but the plebiscite in old Brandenburg was overseen by international observers from across the political spectrum and deemed legitimate, especially after they received the endorsement of the heroic Freikorpbund who's efforts were so key and protecting the defenseless civilians from the leftist radical "militas" (More like armed mobs looking for an excuse to loot, in my opinion). The controversy really did create some huge political rifts in the German Republic that lead to the permanence of its separation in the crisis following the Civil War. Still, they were at least respectful enough to allow the dissenting provinces (Namely Bavaria, The Rhenish Republic, Free Hamburg, Prussia) to refuse to ascend to the new Empire without trying to drag them back in with military force, which is more than can by said for the Commies in Russia and Nanking. Mao never cared how many people had to die, suffer, or get their arms twisted into doing as he pleased as though they were merely his little toy soldiers, so long as the survivors were good little peasant-communists.

I'll admit, I'm perhaps a bit biased towards the right. My family and homeland, the glorious Kazaki Khanate, owe their independence to the brave volunteer citizen-soldiers of The Ataturk's "Wolf Packs" and Polish rifles, after all. But that was merely to provide training and a vital force-multiplier backbone in our hour of need: we were willing to fight and die to break the Muscovite yolk and never stooped to sending delegates to beg like dogs before dictators to send in million-man armies on live radio, or accepted huge "gifts" of gold in exchange for slavishly following their demands on our domestic policy.

The German People, you talk about. The German People. You'll have to allow me the privilege to capitalize the phrase, as surely something so grandiose deserves capitalization. The German People. In the Federative Republics, we do not ask what is good for this country's people or that country's people. We ask what is good for all people. Nationalism is a social ill and one destined to be destroyed along with its handmaiden, capitalism. Whatever 'domination' we might have enacted upon you poor, innocent, Nazi (and that is what you were after the war) Germans...Remember that domestic domination is no less vile than foreign domination, the domination of the landowner no less vile than the domination of a powerful state.

Your beloved Freikorps were far worse than the leftist militias ever were, and many of the leftist militias' crimes were crimes of revenge, against the atrocities committed upon the German lower classes by the Freikorps. For the record, Mao was a failure in terms of Marxism-Leninism and the fall of the People's Republic of China in the 1980s was a good example of it. The fact that you compare Marxist-Leninists such as the Federative Republics to revisionists such as the People's Republic of China displays a lack of knowledge about that topic that you are so fascinated with and yet full of hate for - Marxism.

Oh, and you would do well not to go after me for fulfilling this stereotype or that, as a woman. I am nothing less than a good Communist, and nothing more.
 
The German People, you talk about. The German People. You'll have to allow me the privilege to capitalize the phrase, as surely something so grandiose deserves capitalization. The German People. In the Federative Republics, we do not ask what is good for this country's people or that country's people. We ask what is good for all people. Nationalism is a social ill and one destined to be destroyed along with its handmaiden, capitalism. Whatever 'domination' we might have enacted upon you poor, innocent, Nazi (and that is what you were after the war) Germans...Remember that domestic domination is no less vile than foreign domination, the domination of the landowner no less vile than the domination of a powerful state.

Your beloved Freikorps were far worse than the leftist militias ever were, and many of the leftist militias' crimes were crimes of revenge, against the atrocities committed upon the German lower classes by the Freikorps. For the record, Mao was a failure in terms of Marxism-Leninism and the fall of the People's Republic of China in the 1980s was a good example of it. The fact that you compare Marxist-Leninists such as the Federative Republics to revisionists such as the People's Republic of China displays a lack of knowledge about that topic that you are so fascinated with and yet full of hate for - Marxism.

Oh, and you would do well not to go after me for fulfilling this stereotype or that, as a woman. I am nothing less than a good Communist, and nothing more.

(OOC: Hey, I just really want to compliment the quality of your RPing and really look forward to providing a worthy response, but its late here and I have duty as a delegate tomorrow morning. Don't take the long delay in my response as a sign that I'm not interested in/disrespecting your work.)
 
(OOC: Hey, I just really want to compliment the quality of your RPing and really look forward to providing a worthy response, but its late here and I have duty as a delegate tomorrow morning. Don't take the long delay in my response as a sign that I'm not interested in/disrespecting your work.)

OOC: It's fine, it's past midnight here, I get where you're coming from. Thanks for the compliment, BTW, it's highly appreciated, and your thought was also very appreciated. Sounds like a plan.
 
Top