DBWI: Continental System falls apart

You mean main exporters, right?

No, I meant importers to Britain.

Since when has the "Breadbasket of Europe?" ever been short on grain?

Well, actually, from time to time there were bad harvests but in general....

And its common knowledge that Czars Peter and Paul were a...

Not very healthy people (I assume that you are talking about Peter III).


AH... I understand know. Don't worry Ivan: I know how hard it is for folks in your area just to get into the "open" Timmy. I won't press you into a position where you might trigger one of the centery-sensor keystroke reader programs that might bring the oprichnina

By that time Russia was already a civilized country so there was no need of getting back to the times of Ivan IV and his terrible institutions: since the early XVIII most of the "succession issues" had been successfully ...er... "localized" and handled by the Guards.
 
It was a temporary lose, sure, and not recognized by anybody outside Britain, but don't you remember the 2nd Corsican Revolt? The locals had already done it once prior to Nappy's ascension as Emperor, and once The Great Siege kicked in GB was pulling out all the stops to try to pry it open... the most obvious way being by sea. It was in spring of 1811, if I recall, when the Grand Armada (Consisting of the vessels operating out of Portugal, Malta, Sicily, the Ionian Isles, and those kicked out of the OE's ports after they signed onto the Temesvár Treaties and joined the Concordant Continental trade bloc/custom's union.) massed around the Straits, and along the way they blew the main French garrison out of the southern Corsican ports to hand it back to the rebels still fighting inland. Of course, after The Battle of the Straits and the subsequent withdrawal of the fleet back to England for repairs, leaving the Med. virtually undefended, France was quick to regarrison the (quickly abandoned) port, but subdueing the hitherlands still took a good few years
OOC:No way it would have happened with a victorious Napoleon, it didn't even happen OTL you dropped the ball on this I am effraid.
 
Well, it did then SOME good by guarantying uninterrupted supply of port, which was quite important for keeping population quiet.

Well, even Napoleon knew the importance of drink to the average peasant and soldier (and even the economy as a whole, since without access to proffesionally brewed alcohol a lot of the grain has a tendency to... not get onto the market). There's a reason why, besides bread, wine was the only other part of the ration always guaranteed to be supplied at every army depot.

No, I meant importers to Britain.



Well, actually, from time to time there were bad harvests but in general....



Not very healthy people (I assume that you are talking about Peter III).




By that time Russia was already a civilized country so there was no need of getting back to the times of Ivan IV and his terrible institutions: since the early XVIII most of the "succession issues" had been successfully ...er... "localized" and handled by the Guards.

1. One "imports" to one's self. Sending things out to other countries is "exporting". Now that you've clarified I see what you mean, but you'll forgive me for being confused when you said "main importer" when they were actually exporting to Britain.

2. See above. One would be an importer of grain if they weren't usually producing an excess themselves.

3. Whatever you say... I personally subscribe to a slightly different school of thought on the matter.

4. I'm talking about the current state of affairs in Russia using a somewhat colorful (or just stupid) series of metaphors.

OOC:No way it would have happened with a victorious Napoleon, it didn't even happen OTL you dropped the ball on this I am effraid.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Corsican_Kingdom

OOC: I spoke only of a temporary revolt, in any event, based on British naval concentration in the area.
 
1. One "imports" to one's self. Sending things out to other countries is "exporting". Now that you've clarified I see what you mean, but you'll forgive me for being confused when you said "main importer" when they were actually exporting to Britain.

But Britain was importing grain, iron, etc. As in "The Corn Laws were tariffs and other trade restrictions on imported food and grain ("corn") enforced in Great Britain between 1815 and 1846." so from the British perspective Russia was an "importer".

2. See above. One would be an importer of grain if they weren't usually producing an excess themselves.

Ah, I see. But keep in mind that Russian Empire was a rather big country and a bad harvest (or even famine) in one region did not mean a bad harvest everywhere and also did not mean that the grain producers (estate owners) would automatically choose a compassion (selling grain at low cost to the suffering areas ) over the British gold.

3. Whatever you say... I personally subscribe to a slightly different school of thought on the matter.
Can you please provide more details?

Personally, I stick to what I said: surely neither Peter III nor Paul I had been very healthy if they could not survive a broken skull.

4. I'm talking about the current state of affairs in Russia using a somewhat colorful (or just stupid) series of metaphors.

Not sure if I got it, especially the "current state" (current as now or as in the the XVIII - XIX centuries). Period of the Russian history from 1725 till 1825 is sometimes called "Century of the Guards" - most of the Russian rulers of that period either got or lost power with the active involvement of the Guards.
 
But Britain was importing grain, iron, etc. As in "The Corn Laws were tariffs and other trade restrictions on imported food and grain ("corn") enforced in Great Britain between 1815 and 1846." so from the British perspective Russia was an "importer".



Ah, I see. But keep in mind that Russian Empire was a rather big country and a bad harvest (or even famine) in one region did not mean a bad harvest everywhere and also did not mean that the grain producers (estate owners) would automatically choose a compassion (selling grain at low cost to the suffering areas ) over the British gold.


Can you please provide more details?

Personally, I stick to what I said: surely neither Peter III nor Paul I had been very healthy if they could not survive a broken skull.



Not sure if I got it, especially the "current state" (current as now or as in the the XVIII - XIX centuries). Period of the Russian history from 1725 till 1825 is sometimes called "Century of the Guards" - most of the Russian rulers of that period either got or lost power with the active involvement of the Guards.

Importing. Imported TO Britain. This is another reason I think you might be Russian; English might not be your first language. Not like there's anything wrong with that: it's just a matter of subject-adjective agreement. This and your second point seem to be just a linguistic misunderstanding. The substance is sound though: the tariffs on all foreign imports (of which Russian grain was one), designed both to protect the poor rural population and landed from being driven into poverty and debt by the imposition of the 1st Direct Crown Revenue Act, won them domestic support but was ultimately a moronic move for prying allies loose from the Continental System. After all, even if they did abandon France they would still be "punished" compared to the pre-war trade situation, which lead to the old Coalition sympathizing nations of the continent to seek accommodation with the new Imperial market. It was the same thing with Ottoman cotton and fruit.

I do find it interesting how Western Hemisphere goods were excluded though. Maybe it was to encourage the elites in Spanish America to join into the Revolution?

... Nobody can survive a broken skull. Not even Samson, if you catch my drift.

Current state as in today (OOC: Russia today... Censorship, internet watch, brutal autocratic regime... I was just trying to make a joke).
 
Importing. Imported TO Britain. This is another reason I think you might be Russian; English might not be your first language. Not like there's anything wrong with that: it's just a matter of subject-adjective agreement. This and your second point seem to be just a linguistic misunderstanding.

Yes, this seems to be the case but I'm glad that we ended up with a mutual understanding.


The substance is sound though: the tariffs on all foreign imports (of which Russian grain was one), designed both to protect the poor rural population and landed from being driven into poverty and debt by the imposition of the 1st Direct Crown Revenue Act, won them domestic support but was ultimately a moronic move for prying allies loose from the Continental System.

It also resulted in the rising bread prices for the city dwellers which did not make them excessively happy. Not sure how tariffs on imported iron could benefit the rural population. :)

After all, even if they did abandon France they would still be "punished" compared to the pre-war trade situation, which lead to the old Coalition sympathizing nations of the continent to seek accommodation with the new Imperial market. It was the same thing with Ottoman cotton and fruit.

As far as Russian Empire was concerned it somewhat lowered domestic bread prices (France could not completely compensate for the lost British market) but removal of the British competition also resulted in a growth of the domestic manufacturing. Among other areas, Russian iron-producing industry instead of just shipping the iron pegs to Britain started expanding production of the manufactured goods (previously killed by the cheaper and better British products). The same goes for the textile industry. Taking into an account that Russian nobility had been heavily involved in all sorts of manufacturing (being owners of the "work force"), they eventually ended up on a gaining side, which added to the popularity of Emperor Constantine I (in most other areas this popularity was somewhat lacking) and stability of his rule.

... Nobody can survive a broken skull. Not even Samson, if you catch my drift.

Yes, these hemorrhoid fits and apoplexy sometimes produce strange but quite deadly symptoms.

Current state as in today (OOC: Russia today... Censorship, internet watch, brutal autocratic regime... I was just trying to make a joke).

On that specific issue I really can't comment: my interest in the Russian affairs is much lower than in the state of the roads in the People Republic of MA. :)
 
Yes, this seems to be the case but I'm glad that we ended up with a mutual understanding.




It also resulted in the rising bread prices for the city dwellers which did not make them excessively happy. Not sure how tariffs on imported iron could benefit the rural population. :)



As far as Russian Empire was concerned it somewhat lowered domestic bread prices (France could not completely compensate for the lost British market) but removal of the British competition also resulted in a growth of the domestic manufacturing. Among other areas, Russian iron-producing industry instead of just shipping the iron pegs to Britain started expanding production of the manufactured goods (previously killed by the cheaper and better British products). The same goes for the textile industry. Taking into an account that Russian nobility had been heavily involved in all sorts of manufacturing (being owners of the "work force"), they eventually ended up on a gaining side, which added to the popularity of Emperor Constantine I (in most other areas this popularity was somewhat lacking) and stability of his rule.



Yes, these hemorrhoid fits and apoplexy sometimes produce strange but quite deadly symptoms.



On that specific issue I really can't comment: my interest in the Russian affairs is much lower than in the state of the roads in the People Republic of MA. :)

That's true, though there were a handful of mitigating factors at least early on. After all, the war effort brought out a huge government demand for textiles, rum brewing, shipbuilding, ect. which created the usual "war boom" for their industry. The problem for them was the relevant Orders in Council were under the purview of the House of Lords (the same ones who pushed for the Corn Laws to protect the profitability of their estates) which lead to the contracts being directed away from the more efficient, larger scale facilities owned by their rising burgus rivals and was instead parceled out to small artisans. This, ironically, left the unskilled urban labor out in the cold, showing London clearly hadn't grasped the economic lessons of the French Revolution any more than the military ones.

As for the iron tariffs, those mines and miners live out in the countryside as well.
 
That's true, though there were a handful of mitigating factors at least early on. After all, the war effort brought out a huge government demand for textiles, rum brewing, shipbuilding, ect. which created the usual "war boom" for their industry. The problem for them was the relevant Orders in Council were under the purview of the House of Lords (the same ones who pushed for the Corn Laws to protect the profitability of their estates) which lead to the contracts being directed away from the more efficient, larger scale facilities owned by their rising burgus rivals and was instead parceled out to small artisans. This, ironically, left the unskilled urban labor out in the cold, showing London clearly hadn't grasped the economic lessons of the French Revolution any more than the military ones.

And as a result of these policies Britain found itself in a self-inflicted isolation with the markets being pretty much limited to its own colonies while the states of continental Europe had been suing absence of the British competition to develop their own industries. The internal consumption, even with the artificial military consumption, could not quite compensate for the loss of the exports of the woolen cloth and other products of the British industry, which resulted in a steadily growing unemployment among the lower classes and higher food prices added to a general misery.

Government could continue the deficit spending for quite a while but not forever so some extra sources of income and the new markets had to be found. The biggest and most obvious had been China. The only problem was with the annoying fact that the only thing Chinese wanted from the European traders was gold. They even refused to buy the product abundantly produced by East India Company in the Indian province of Bengal. The fact that the Chinese barbarians are impeding the free trade was intolerable to the freedom-loving Brits and there were loud demands to the government to remedy the situation.

To the government's credit, it raised up to the situation: the otherwise useless troops spending their time in the pubs and whorehouses waiting for the French invasion (an idea with which Napoleon played for a while but then rejected as not worthy of an effort) had been loaded on the ships, placed under command of general Arthur Wellesley (who just recently returned from the glorious war in South America which left a lot of smoking ruins and completely confused natives wondering who was fighting whom and why), and sailed all the way to China to start what later became known as the 1st Opium War. The British arms were gloriously successful, the Quing's armies had been defeated in the battles and their fortified cities captured, the British commander, Arthur Wellesley became Duke of Wellington, and the revenues from opium trade helped to keep Britain at (at least theoretical) war with Europe for few more years.

Unfortunately, some unscrupulous merchants started bringing opium into Britain (a brand new type of the fast ships, so-called "opium clippers", had been built to allow bringing a new crop from Bengal to Britain ASAP). The British scientists had been working hard and within a single year mass production of morphine and then heroin started. Approximately at the same time the 1st shipments of coca started arriving from a newly-liberated South America allowing mass production of cheap crack cocaine to keep the lower classes happy. Success of these products surpassed all expectations and by 1818 few remaining members of the Parliament who who still managed to maintain at least a vague interest to anything but a dope voted for peace with France. By that time usage of the narcotics became so endemic that the whole event passed almost unnoticed by the British population. :)
 
Maybe it's just because I am American, but I like to think losing Canada to the USA, in addition to humiliating losses like New Orleans, Halifax and the like played some role in finally getting the Brits to throw in the towl.

Losing to Napoleon was one thing - he was the most brilliant military mind of his era. One of the best of ANY era. To us Yanks, for the second time, and with nothing to show for it save burning down parts of DC? THAT must have stung.

I mean, even Napoleon, after the war ended, was quoted saying selling us the Louisiana territory was "as important a to our victory as any battlefield".

For our part, between the eventual states carved out of Louisiana and Canada, it gave the USA enough land and prestige to kick off Manifest Destiny.

Again, I am biased - I live in Madison, Ontario.
 
And as a result of these policies Britain found itself in a self-inflicted isolation with the markets being pretty much limited to its own colonies while the states of continental Europe had been suing absence of the British competition to develop their own industries. The internal consumption, even with the artificial military consumption, could not quite compensate for the loss of the exports of the woolen cloth and other products of the British industry, which resulted in a steadily growing unemployment among the lower classes and higher food prices added to a general misery.

Government could continue the deficit spending for quite a while but not forever so some extra sources of income and the new markets had to be found. The biggest and most obvious had been China. The only problem was with the annoying fact that the only thing Chinese wanted from the European traders was gold. They even refused to buy the product abundantly produced by East India Company in the Indian province of Bengal. The fact that the Chinese barbarians are impeding the free trade was intolerable to the freedom-loving Brits and there were loud demands to the government to remedy the situation.

To the government's credit, it raised up to the situation: the otherwise useless troops spending their time in the pubs and whorehouses waiting for the French invasion (an idea with which Napoleon played for a while but then rejected as not worthy of an effort) had been loaded on the ships, placed under command of general Arthur Wellesley (who just recently returned from the glorious war in South America which left a lot of smoking ruins and completely confused natives wondering who was fighting whom and why), and sailed all the way to China to start what later became known as the 1st Opium War. The British arms were gloriously successful, the Quing's armies had been defeated in the battles and their fortified cities captured, the British commander, Arthur Wellesley became Duke of Wellington, and the revenues from opium trade helped to keep Britain at (at least theoretical) war with Europe for few more years.

Unfortunately, some unscrupulous merchants started bringing opium into Britain (a brand new type of the fast ships, so-called "opium clippers", had been built to allow bringing a new crop from Bengal to Britain ASAP). The British scientists had been working hard and within a single year mass production of morphine and then heroin started. Approximately at the same time the 1st shipments of coca started arriving from a newly-liberated South America allowing mass production of cheap crack cocaine to keep the lower classes happy. Success of these products surpassed all expectations and by 1818 few remaining members of the Parliament who who still managed to maintain at least a vague interest to anything but a dope voted for peace with France. By that time usage of the narcotics became so endemic that the whole event passed almost unnoticed by the British population. :)

(I... I don't even know how to respond to the end of that right now. I need time to absorb the sheer genius of that last part and co-ordinate what its realistic impact would be on the world. My hats' off to you. Economics!)

Maybe it's just because I am American, but I like to think losing Canada to the USA, in addition to humiliating losses like New Orleans, Halifax and the like played some role in finally getting the Brits to throw in the towl.

Losing to Napoleon was one thing - he was the most brilliant military mind of his era. One of the best of ANY era. To us Yanks, for the second time, and with nothing to show for it save burning down parts of DC? THAT must have stung.

I mean, even Napoleon, after the war ended, was quoted saying selling us the Louisiana territory was "as important a to our victory as any battlefield".

For our part, between the eventual states carved out of Louisiana and Canada, it gave the USA enough land and prestige to kick off Manifest Destiny.

Again, I am biased - I live in Madison, Ontario.

To be fair Halifax was, for a "last stand" battle by the tattered, ill, and under-supplied remnants of the British Relief expedition, conducted brilliantly. General Geaffe had, what, 400 effectives left at that point? But your post does present the key cause of Britain's failure: while tactically she had good commanders and her fundamental economic and military structure was sound, in terms of politics and international diplomacy their aristocratic leadership was totally petty and culturally tone-deaf compared to the highly charismatic Napoleon and his more co-ordinate, amicable foreign policy. Britain was a lion being dragged along by a heard of goats, while France: by combining diplomatic and military policy in a powerful executive while creating a meritocratic system of advisors and administrators to insure his policies were effectively carried out, was a gaggle of Revolutionary hens called to order by the Gaulic rooster.
 
(I... I don't even know how to respond to the end of that right now. I need time to absorb the sheer genius of that last part and co-ordinate what its realistic impact would be on the world. My hats' off to you. Economics!)



To be fair Halifax was, for a "last stand" battle by the tattered, ill, and under-supplied remnants of the British Relief expedition, conducted brilliantly. General Geaffe had, what, 400 effectives left at that point? But your post does present the key cause of Britain's failure: while tactically she had good commanders and her fundamental economic and military structure was sound, in terms of politics and international diplomacy their aristocratic leadership was totally petty and culturally tone-deaf compared to the highly charismatic Napoleon and his more co-ordinate, amicable foreign policy. Britain was a lion being dragged along by a heard of goats, while France: by combining diplomatic and military policy in a powerful executive while creating a meritocratic system of advisors and administrators to insure his policies were effectively carried out, was a gaggle of Revolutionary hens called to order by the Gaulic rooster.

Incredible post
 
On the other end the defeat to Napoleon discredited the british leadership, many peoples in Britain were starting to wonder why they have to pay so much taxes to go to war over places none of them cared. The british bourgeoisie wanted peace so business could restart and the poor were also suffering and while the government tried to shift the blame on France their anger started to be directed toward their own leaders for continuing the war. I know their were riots in some part of the country.
 
To the government's credit, it raised up to the situation: the otherwise useless troops spending their time in the pubs and whorehouses waiting for the French invasion (an idea with which Napoleon played for a while but then rejected as not worthy of an effort) had been loaded on the ships, placed under command of general Arthur Wellesley (who just recently returned from the glorious war in South America which left a lot of smoking ruins and completely confused natives wondering who was fighting whom and why), and sailed all the way to China to start what later became known as the 1st Opium War. The British arms were gloriously successful, the Quing's armies had been defeated in the battles and their fortified cities captured, the British commander, Arthur Wellesley became Duke of Wellington, and the revenues from opium trade helped to keep Britain at (at least theoretical) war with Europe for few more years.

What the....

Dude, did you just basically quote the synopsis of that ridiculous new British "period" blockbuster "Wellington's Heroes"?!? I mean cmon man, i know that silly ass movie is shattering all sorts of box office records due to it amazing writing, acting, and production values, but to try to sneak that blurb into a real historical discussion takes some monster ass cojones. Speaking of which, i'm gonna go watch it again with my friends, despite the pure butchery of history accuracy its a goddamn entertaining popcorn flick.

Anyone who ever picked up a history book knows damn well what really happened in that "glorious" little war. Wellington and his motley crew of "swashbucklers" (IE survivors of his disastrous Western Hemisphere campaign) pulled off a literally balls to the wall ASB insane sneak attack on a Qing coastal fortress and then double downed on ASB luck that it happened to be THE "treasure fortress" that the Qing province was using as its central tax collection point. Then to add insult to injury, 3 more tax laden ships were seized as Wellington's bandits were on the way out with their massive ill gotten loot, not to mention an epic final fight on a confiscated smuggling ship full of opium (hence "Opium" War) that ended up in a massive fireball (so very faithfully translated on big screen).

With all that treasure, Wellesley was able to buy himself back into the good graces of the court, forgiving his disgraceful command in the Americas, as well as buying his Dukedom. The stunning amount of treasure stolen basically helping keep the Brits afloat for awhile helping recover from their disastrous clashes with Napoleon.

However that crazy raid did have major consequences. The heir, eldest son of Jiaqing, and favorite grandson of the legend Qianlong, Min Ning was inspecting the fort and was killed during the storming. Imperial Qing then had a massive hate on for the British, who the French then cunningly took advantage of by selling second hand ships, weapons, and sending advisers of all sorts to aid them in their eventual reprisals and occupations of British Australia and bits of India. With the end of the fighting on the European continent all of these restless young officers had to go somewhere to seek adventure!

The Qing military got revitalized with the help of the French advisory commission and really provided the perfect proxy in Asia to blunt British and later on Russian interests in the Far East. The French essentially brought China along for the industrialization ride and opened up the Chinese market where they finally started to accept goods other than hard currency in trade. Taxes were raised to fund all of these endeavors and the expected peasant revolts were swiftly crushed by the French trained revamped Banner armies.

Its crazy how the French was always in the right place and right time for these things. The eventual successor after Jiaqing ended being a massive Franco-phile really was a massive stroke of luck in helping keep British influence down, leading to their eventual losses in the 2nd/3rd "Opium" Wars. I kinda wonder what would've happened if Wellington didnt make his crazy ass raid, or if that heir prince didnt get whacked, leading to the Qing going on the warpath. Heh i bet China would be even richer and more powerful than it is now. I mean all that treasure not stolen, spent on more infrastructure (instead of weapons/ships), and a MASSIVE population advantage, i mean how can China ever fail? :D
 
What the....

Dude, did you just basically quote the synopsis of that ridiculous new British "period" blockbuster "Wellington's Heroes"?!? I mean cmon man, i know that silly ass movie is shattering all sorts of box office records due to it amazing writing, acting, and production values, but to try to sneak that blurb into a real historical discussion takes some monster ass cojones. Speaking of which, i'm gonna go watch it again with my friends, despite the pure butchery of history accuracy its a goddamn entertaining popcorn flick.

Anyone who ever picked up a history book knows damn well what really happened in that "glorious" little war. Wellington and his motley crew of "swashbucklers" (IE survivors of his disastrous Western Hemisphere campaign) pulled off a literally balls to the wall ASB insane sneak attack on a Qing coastal fortress and then double downed on ASB luck that it happened to be THE "treasure fortress" that the Qing province was using as its central tax collection point. Then to add insult to injury, 3 more tax laden ships were seized as Wellington's bandits were on the way out with their massive ill gotten loot, not to mention an epic final fight on a confiscated smuggling ship full of opium (hence "Opium" War) that ended up in a massive fireball (so very faithfully translated on big screen).


Well, here you go: who cares about historical accuracy as long as it is entertaining? In its genre "WH" (AFAIK) was second (in the terms of revenue) only to the "Braveheart" which also was not quite accurate: as everyone knows the real William Gibson (or Mel Wallace, the historians are still not quite sure) had been burned alive for having a tumultuous romance with princess Isabella (seducing 10 years old girl was not quite kosher even at these times and when you are doing this to the bride of the heir of the throne ....) and not for some non-existing rebellion. Or if you ever watched "Alexander Nevsky" (because of its famous music), it is all one big nonsense from beginning to the end. So stop being pedantic. :)

However, with all its inaccuracies, the main line of the "WH" is correct: he and his army had been dumped on the heads of mostly unsuspected natives and, taking into an account that these natives "habla no Inglesa" (few years ago an insurance company in Lynn, MA had a wonderful sign "Habla Inglesa" in its front window) and it would be quite naive to expect from a self-respecting Brit to learn Spanish, the whole affair was, quite understandably, just a Series of the Unfortunate Events glorified by the British press just as the Charge of the Light Brigade or the story of the Thin Red Line (in a reality, there were considerably more people in that "red line" than on the attacking side and, contrary to the report and popular paintings, the whole affairs amounted to a couple of salvos fired at a great distance and hurting nobody: the "attackers" never got anywhere close to the British ranks, they just turned and rode away).

In China, as you correctly noticed, Wellseley and his troops simply got lucky: the Chinese (most of whom despised the Manchu rulers) just fled away leaving the tax gold (actually, they managed to steal most of it for themselves but the leftovers had been big enough for the British officers to get home famously rich). However, as the recent research proved beyond any reasonable doubt, the story with the exploding ship is a fake. Just as a legend of Winkelried at Sempach, it is stolen from a completely different real event associated with Henry Morgan: after one of his expedition it was found that a loot was much smaller than expected and in the most (un)fortunate moment Henry's flagship blew off seriously decreasing a number of the shareholders (and allowing the survivors to loot the floating corpses). In this case it was just a clever cover-up for the fact that the cargo was already stolen (there was an under the table deal between Sir Arthur and Chinese captain from which both sides benefited and both cargo and the crew left the ship without making too much noise): under the normal circumstances, at least the sailors had been entitled to the prize money from a captured ship and its cargo but "no cargo, no money" with a resulting fistfight (opium was gone but there were still few barrels of the local rotgut in the ship's hold so the boarding crew was roaring drunk at no time). Of course, a spectacular explosion looks much better on the screen and even in the history books but why would anybody burn the ship? Lesser prize money are better than nothing and why and how exactly a shipment of opium would explode?

The whole story about origin of the 1st load of opium arriving to Britain was never completely clarified. It is quite possible that the load indeed came from one of the warehouses in Canton (as a trophy to show the British public) but the fact remains that later the shipments had been coming directly from Benghal carried by the opium clippers (the most famous of which, "Cutty Sark", is being preserved in permanent dry dock at Greenwich, London).

But, to clarify the obvious misunderstanding, in my post I provided the British (semi-)official picture of the events (at least SOME Brits are quite sensitive to what they are considering as being their history and I did not want to ruffle any feathers). If you start digging into history too deep you are risking to end up with a quote from The Makropulos Affair:

- But you are removing all glory from a history.
- There was nothing glorious in it.



With all that treasure, Wellesley was able to buy himself back into the good graces of the court, forgiving his disgraceful command in the Americas, as well as buying his Dukedom. The stunning amount of treasure stolen basically helping keep the Brits afloat for awhile helping recover from their disastrous clashes with Napoleon.

Of course. But this would not make for a good PR because any nation needs its heroes and who cares if there was some discreet redistribution of the wealth on a background?

The legend about "The stunning amount of treasure stolen" being used for keeping Britain afloat does not stand up to any criticism: who and where saw anything of the kind? Of course, formally, the stolen bullion had been spent on the "state's needs" (or whatever the official explanation) but it helps to remember that in this context "state" amounted to a reasonably small group of people most of whom at that time made significant improvements in their London and country residences and/or made some quite extravagant purchases (jewels-encrusted male and female footwear and "Turkish style" ostrich feathers with the diamonds became fashionable exactly at that time, which is probably a mere coincidence). OTOH, it can be argued that the lower classes (shoemakers, jewelers, tailors, etc.) also benefited as a part of trickle down economy and thus helped to distract the nation from not quite glorious clashes with the Corsican Ogre. But, in a reality, a steady supply of the relatively cheap narcotics had been more more effective.

However that crazy raid did have major consequences. The heir, eldest son of Jiaqing, and favorite grandson of the legend Qianlong, Min Ning was inspecting the fort and was killed during the storming.

Being too drunk to wake up and flee with the rest. Of course, in the Chinese history he ended up as a hero who went down while single-handedly covering the retreat of the defenders (see popular Chinese movie "Sleeping mule, jumping rabbit" - received Oscar in 2014 as the Best Foreign movie).

Imperial Qing then had a massive hate on for the British, who the French then cunningly took advantage of by selling second hand ships, weapons, and sending advisers of all sorts to aid them in their eventual reprisals and occupations of British Australia and bits of India. With the end of the fighting on the European continent all of these restless young officers had to go somewhere to seek adventure!

Very astute observation. Of course, from the British perspective, these French had been just loathsome creatures without any principles. French view on the same people was, unsurprisingly, somewhat different.

The Qing military got revitalized with the help of the French advisory commission and really provided the perfect proxy in Asia to blunt British and later on Russian interests in the Far East.

At that time Russian interests in China amounted to purchasing big quantities of tea for furs or gold. Only few decades later, Russia managed to convince China to start accepting part of these payments in vodka but this is a different story. However, even this trade caused a lot of uproar in Britain with the claims that Russia is infringing upon the British free trade and is trying to march on India through China (Foreign Office was still using small-sized maps without indications of the mountains, deserts and other trifles).

The French essentially brought China along for the industrialization ride and opened up the Chinese market where they finally started to accept goods other than hard currency in trade. Taxes were raised to fund all of these endeavors and the expected peasant revolts were swiftly crushed by the French trained revamped Banner armies.

Very good synopsis. See above about some of the "goods".

Its crazy how the French was always in the right place and right time for these things. The eventual successor after Jiaqing ended being a massive Franco-phile really was a massive stroke of luck in helping keep British influence down, leading to their eventual losses in the 2nd/3rd "Opium" Wars.

Sorry, but his Francophilia had little to do with luck: demonstration of the most recent models of the French female underwear was the critical argument in his "turn toward the Western barbarians" and few boxes of Chateau de Beaulon Napoleon Cognac (20 years old) and Veuve Clicquot vintage 1811 became something of an icing on the cake.


I kinda wonder what would've happened if Wellington didnt make his crazy ass raid, or if that heir prince didnt get whacked, leading to the Qing going on the warpath. Heh i bet China would be even richer and more powerful than it is now. I mean all that treasure not stolen, spent on more infrastructure (instead of weapons/ships), and a MASSIVE population advantage, i mean how can China ever fail? :D

This is a little bit idealistic: most of the treasury (or rather part of it that was not stolen by the regional officials) had been routinely spent on the further expansion and beautification of the imperial Summer Palace with its trees made of gold, the whole (small) mountains being moved for the hundreds of miles and so on. Without the enlightened French influence they'd keep doing this forever.:)
 
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