DBWI: consequences of a Jewish state in the Levant after the Holocaust?
- Thread starter danteheadman
- Start date
It depends a lot on the details. I'm assuming this means a more successful Zionist movement? In that case, I guess something with Zion in its name would work. There has been a long history of peaceful Muslim-Jewish relations in the region, but apparently there was quite a bit of violence during the height of Zionist migration, so I'm not sure what the reaction would be. The Palestinian Arabs would certainly be angry*, but I don't think other nations would care much. Also, now that I've started think about this hypothetical, what would its language be? I assume Yiddish, but that's hardly representative of all Jews.
*What would happen to the Palestinian natives in this scenario? Would they be forcefully removed (unlikely) or would there be such a large Jewish population that they would be rendered a minority (also unlikely)?
*What would happen to the Palestinian natives in this scenario? Would they be forcefully removed (unlikely) or would there be such a large Jewish population that they would be rendered a minority (also unlikely)?
I don't see it. Zionism was as much a pipe dream as the Pakistan movement and the New Afrika movement.
Cryhavoc101
Donor
Didn't Britain and France hold the mandate for the region since the end of WW1?
While there might have been sympathy for the Jewish people after the 2nd Great War - the British had promised the Arab peoples independence after their assistance in WW1 and need to keep them on side following the expansion of fuel supplies from the region.
And several million Jewish people have moved to Palestine anyway and have integrated the existing population
I visited Palestines 'Jaffa' City as a young sailor in the 90s - and it like Beirut to the north was party central - I noticed that even though the 'Jewish quarter' of the City (called Tel Aviv - a small city in its own right) makes up only a portion - I would say a 3rd of the businesses in the main city of Jaffa were Jewish owned - all quite happily mixed in with the Arab businesses
Had a Jewish nation been forced on the area then I doubt I would have found it to be the happy vibrant sea side city that it was when I visited.
While there might have been sympathy for the Jewish people after the 2nd Great War - the British had promised the Arab peoples independence after their assistance in WW1 and need to keep them on side following the expansion of fuel supplies from the region.
And several million Jewish people have moved to Palestine anyway and have integrated the existing population
I visited Palestines 'Jaffa' City as a young sailor in the 90s - and it like Beirut to the north was party central - I noticed that even though the 'Jewish quarter' of the City (called Tel Aviv - a small city in its own right) makes up only a portion - I would say a 3rd of the businesses in the main city of Jaffa were Jewish owned - all quite happily mixed in with the Arab businesses
Had a Jewish nation been forced on the area then I doubt I would have found it to be the happy vibrant sea side city that it was when I visited.
There would be certainly be fewer Jews elsewhere in the world. Will the Jewish populations of France and Germany and Canada ever reach the one million mark, or will North African and eastern European Jews head to Israel? Will more Russian and Ukrainian Jews stay in the former Soviet Union, or will they go elsewhere? How much the Jewish population of this *Palestine grow?
If ever the hoped for State of Israel were to ever come about as the Zionists vainly hoped, it probably would have ended up as a socialist satellite of the USSR. The Arab monarchies such as Egypt, Jordan, Iraq and Saudi Arabia were overwhelmingly conservative and allied to the West, and their populations were overwhelmingly conservative, tradition bound and Islamic. Can anyone imagine conservative nations such as Egypt or Iraq turning to the atheistic Soviet Union? My guess is that supported by Western Arms and oil money, this hypothetical Israel will be quickly destroyed by the conservative Arab states. Even Soviet arms and diplomatic support won't sve poor Israel in the end. The remaining Jewish population in the world diaspora will curse the Zionists for all eternity for trying to start a nation state in a sea of hostile Arabs.
A state such as this succeeding is ASB.
A state such as this succeeding is ASB.
samcster94
Banned
Even if it does survive, a Democratic Republic of Israel would likely be atheist and not be Jewish or attract many Jews.
Actually, many Jews have migrated not to the Levant, but to the United States. Why do you think there are huge Jewish populations along the coastlines of Florida? It's going to the point you can hear Yiddish and Ladino as much as you can hear Spanish in that state.
The nice thing though is that Jerusalem is now an official international city, with a quasi separate government to protect historical and religious sites there. You have to listen to the tour guides explain the tortuous and long history of Temple Mount, a site sacred to Christianity, Islam and Judaism. That's why there are twice-yearly meetings among religious leaders in an effort to keep the religious zealots from trying to claim Temple Mount permanently.
The nice thing though is that Jerusalem is now an official international city, with a quasi separate government to protect historical and religious sites there. You have to listen to the tour guides explain the tortuous and long history of Temple Mount, a site sacred to Christianity, Islam and Judaism. That's why there are twice-yearly meetings among religious leaders in an effort to keep the religious zealots from trying to claim Temple Mount permanently.
I'm with those who say that this is really unrealistic. Yes, there was a Zionist movement since the early 1900s, but it certainly didn't represent the majority opinion among the Jewish people. The Holocaust was a huge trauma, and did result in increased migration to Palestine, but didn't lead to any moves towards state formation - the new population integrated surprisingly well, barring a few minor incidents, and I'm not sure what could have changed that enough to cause the formation of a Republic of Zion, or whatever. In any case, such a state would have to either displace the local Palestinians - utterly unthinkable and unrealistic in the light of the Holocaust - or, more likely, try and assimilate them. This is pretty unrealistic as well.
The only way such a state could survive - and not a very likely chance - would be if some major schism opened up in the Arab world (maybe more states oppose Nasser's plans for a United Arab Republic, rather than essentially just ignoring it until he was deposed), and if this Zion then sided with one faction, eventually becoming a vassal of sorts. Of course, this still doesn't solve the issue of the native Palestinians - they're hardly going to emigrate to Amman or Lebanon, after all, since Palestine is much more productive.
The only way such a state could survive - and not a very likely chance - would be if some major schism opened up in the Arab world (maybe more states oppose Nasser's plans for a United Arab Republic, rather than essentially just ignoring it until he was deposed), and if this Zion then sided with one faction, eventually becoming a vassal of sorts. Of course, this still doesn't solve the issue of the native Palestinians - they're hardly going to emigrate to Amman or Lebanon, after all, since Palestine is much more productive.
Why do Jewish folks need their own state in the Middle East? They have a state already; it's called Florida.
Why would sephardi jews leave North Africa, especially Morocco? They have more in common with the local muslims than with the other jews. Also the zionist movement was always seen as anti-jewish by them and too european.
The Maghreb wouldn't be the place it is now without it's 5 million jews. Their economic and cultural contribution post WW2 was and is big.
orwelans II
Banned
If there was a Jewish nation-state instead of Jewry being dispersed around the world, I guess we wouldn't have to deal with these stupid conspiracy theories on how they're behind everything everywhere. They'd just be another ethnic group in their own little statelet.
Wallet
Banned
There were certainly discussions after the war in the UN on possible homelands for the Jewish people outside of Europe. Alaska, Wyoming, Brazil, Kenya, Argentina, Australia, and of course Palestine have all been proposed. The problem is that even after the holocaust the Jewish people globally weren't refugees. Even before the horrors of Europe, they were wealthy and educated.
If a strip of land on the Mediterranean coast of Palestine is set aside for a Jewish state (the proposed "OTL" plan) would have needed heavy UN funding and peacekeeper presence. This also annoys the Arab monarchies, especially if a portion of Jerusalem was allocated to the proposed Jewish state. This could have work with western support. Maybe if you had more lend lease to the soviets that prevents the fall of Moscow. If the soviets are the ones to take Berlin the war ends sooner. Considering that the Americans and British were the ones to liberated Berlin and met with Russian troops in Warsaw, more Jews could be saved. A larger Jewish population justifies the UN proposal.
I do believe a Jewish state could survive. The US basically threatened the Arab governments, especially the Jordan and later Palestine, to protect their Jewish populations and allow a quota of immigrants on. Of course defending an entire nation is a whole new deal but could be done
The long term effects are interesting. Palestine has the fastest growing population in the Levant. They like to have kids. Increase Jewish populations on former Arab settlements could cause a lot of tension
If a strip of land on the Mediterranean coast of Palestine is set aside for a Jewish state (the proposed "OTL" plan) would have needed heavy UN funding and peacekeeper presence. This also annoys the Arab monarchies, especially if a portion of Jerusalem was allocated to the proposed Jewish state. This could have work with western support. Maybe if you had more lend lease to the soviets that prevents the fall of Moscow. If the soviets are the ones to take Berlin the war ends sooner. Considering that the Americans and British were the ones to liberated Berlin and met with Russian troops in Warsaw, more Jews could be saved. A larger Jewish population justifies the UN proposal.
I do believe a Jewish state could survive. The US basically threatened the Arab governments, especially the Jordan and later Palestine, to protect their Jewish populations and allow a quota of immigrants on. Of course defending an entire nation is a whole new deal but could be done
The long term effects are interesting. Palestine has the fastest growing population in the Levant. They like to have kids. Increase Jewish populations on former Arab settlements could cause a lot of tension
Interestingly, Palestine is one of the most technologically progressive parts of the Middle East. They had to in terms of agriculture, given the serious lack of precipitation in that part of the world. A joint Jewish-Arab project to develop advanced irrigation in the Levant resulted in a much of the Middle East becoming a huge source of food again, especially when that technology was applied to the lands around the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers in the Republic of Iraq.
Today, Palestine is a major producer of dates, oranges, grapefruit and lemons--in fact, citrus fruits from that country is in high demand in Europe.
Today, Palestine is a major producer of dates, oranges, grapefruit and lemons--in fact, citrus fruits from that country is in high demand in Europe.