DBWI: Conqueror MBT vs Panzer XII?

[rast]

Boo, infantry small unit combat in the Himalaya - done with Sikhs and Gurkhas mostly, has nothing to do with armour against armour. Same goes for the alpine skirmishes in Savoy.
The Battle of Magdeburg during the Himmler Uprising - that was armour against armour, 550 tanks of the Waffen-SS against 700 of the Heer, largest tank battle in history, mind you.
And the Czech troubles of 68, the Polish rebellion of 81 and the Danish insurgency of 88 all saw substantial armour engagements - all ending in triumph for the Panzerwaffe.

 

[Landshark]

OOC: The Germans only made 6 new tank types in 40 years?

((In OTL the American's only made six new tanks between 1945 and 1985, the Russians about the same and Britain only four, Centurion, (RL) Conqueror, Chieftain and Challenger 1))

 

[RCAF Brat]

It would have been interesting to see how the Conquerors fared against T-79s and T-80s.

Well, the Chally vs. the T-71 during the Afghan civil war is probably the closest that we've got to seeing what that'd be like. And then it came down to training. Afghanistan isn't exactly good tank country, but where they could be used, the Challengers of the Royal Afghan Army crushed the T-71s of the Afghan People's Army.

The Reds lost that one, thank god. Imagine having a Red "People's Republic" that has a land border with India? It was bad enough having to keep the buggers out of Turkey and Persia. Imagine trying to keep them out of India at the same time?

 

[RCAF Brat]

Boo, infantry small unit combat in the Himalaya - done with Sikhs and Gurkhas mostly, has nothing to do with armour against armour. Same goes for the alpine skirmishes in Savoy.
The Battle of Magdeburg during the Himmler Uprising - that was armour against armour, 550 tanks of the Waffen-SS against 700 of the Heer, largest tank battle in history, mind you.
And the Czech troubles of 68, the Polish rebellion of 81 and the Danish insurgency of 88 all saw substantial armour engagements - all ending in triumph for the Panzerwaffe.

What about Shanghai and Nanjing? Big amphibious lanings followed by extensive manoeuvre warfare. Sure we had the Japanese along for the ride, but we provided the bulk of the manpower and the equipment. And we had some major encounters with the Chinese army. Sure they use US surplus or US derived equipment, but they did and still do have a god awful lot of it.

The Gurkhas, Sikhs and that Afghan contingent seized the passed through the Himalayas. The Indian Army liberated Tibet from the Chinese. Once you get out of the mountains, most of the Tibetan plateau is decent ground from manoeuvre warfare. It's just when you look at a map of the world and see that the whole area has an elevation of greater that 10,000' you think mountains, not plains...

But it was the British and Dominion armies landing at Shanghai and Nanjing that made the liberation of Tibet stick. Mind you, the atomic destruction of two of the defending Chinese Army corps north of Shanghai might have had a bit to do with how quick old Chiang upped and quit, but the loss of the bulk of his mechanized forces in battle probably had a lot more to do with why he sued for peace.

 

[Landshark]

The Battle of Magdeburg during the Himmler Uprising - that was armour against armour, 550 tanks of the Waffen-SS against 700 of the Heer, largest tank battle in history, mind you.

Try reading a history book that wasn't written in Germany. Second Battle of Khalkhyn Gol, 1200 Soviet T-60's facing off against 1500 Japanese Type-37's, or any one of the Sino-Japanese clashes of the 50's, 60's or 70's could have matched the Himmler Revolt.

 

[Landshark]

Mind you, the atomic destruction of two of the defending Chinese Army corps north of Shanghai might have had a bit to do with how quick old Chiang upped and quit

((AAAARGH! No nuclear exchanges! Why is everyone always so damn keen to get out the nukes in DBWI? All it does is limit the playing area.))

 

[fastmongrel]

The Conqueror's 32pounder main gun may have been marginally less powerful than the Panzer XII's main armament but it's armour could easily withstand a direct hit from them on the front of the hull or turret.

Why do you think the British stopped development of the smooth bore 35 pounder 4 inch gun. I have heard rumours that it wasnt accurate enough and the seperately loaded bag charge ammunition was vulnerable to cooking off if hit by spall splinters.

 

[RCAF Brat]

((AAAARGH! No nuclear exchanges! Why is everyone always so damn keen to get out the nukes in DBWI? All it does is limit the playing area.))

I should have been more clear. Three tactical nukes used on somebody who could not respond in kind. In a world where there wasn't a Second World War strategic level use to turn people against nuclear weapons.

 

[rast]

Don't mix up numbers totally available with numbers actually used in combat. Second KhG saw no indivual engagement between both sides where numbers exceeded 300, although you're of course right about total numbers. Same goes for the Sino-Japanese stuff, overall numbers are impressive, individual engagements turn out to be rather moderate.
German training manuals aren't that bad in this respect. The guys always had a watchful eye on what was going on elsewehere. 'Schritthalten mit den Untermenschen!' they called it.

 

[Landshark]

Why do you think the British stopped development of the smooth bore 35 pounder 4 inch gun. I have heard rumours that it wasnt accurate enough and the seperately loaded bag charge ammunition was vulnerable to cooking off if hit by spall splinters.

I don't think it was the latter. The 4.7 inch rifled gun uses seperate bag charges without any problem, and I'm not so sure whether the 35lber's accuracy was as bad as sometimes made out. The Char-77's 110mm smoothbore seems to be accurate enough at all combat distances as does the Bofors 110mm on the Strv-82, however both those tanks were designed for use in Europe where the practical combat distances are shorter. Britain and the USSR both seem to take the view that they need rifled guns for distance shooting in North Africa and the Steppes respectively.

 

[The Dean]

Well the Challenger's 120mm rifled gun bears out the wisdom of this. Using HESH rounds it can destroy enemy AFVs up to 5 miles away, much further than APFDS rounds.

 

[M79]

. o O (Would someone mind posting a world map? I would think of a victorious Germany in this case as owning most of continental Europe with the Ukraine, Byelorussia, and Baltics being German satellites while Russia has a few different successor states elsewhere)

 

[fastmongrel]

I often wonder why the USA are the only country to still use diesel engines in there tanks. In the west the Rolls Royce/Turbomeca Eagle gas turbine is almost universal does anyone think the US will ever catch up and get rid of there smokey old Continental clunkers.

 

[rast]

These Americans are clever, gas turbines do not like hot climates. Modern diesel engins are much better suited for desert and arid climate warfare.

 

[Landshark]

I often wonder why the USA are the only country to still use diesel engines in there tanks. In the west the Rolls Royce/Turbomeca Eagle gas turbine is almost universal does anyone think the US will ever catch up and get rid of there smokey old Continental clunkers.

((I may chase you around the room while brandishing a fire axe for lumbering everyone with the fuel guzzling logistics hog that goes by the name of gas turbine. Cool name for it though.))

 

[The Dean]

I think the Rolls Royce/Turbomeca system using gas turbines to power electric motors was an inspired idea taken from the TOG prototypes. It gives as much range as a direct drive diesel and when the power stored in the flywheel and batteries is used it has the silent running ability that has terrified Axis defenders in so many night attacks.

 

[Berra]

(OOC: Does Germany have the oil for a large scale tank army?)

 

[Snowman23]

You all forgot to mention how well the Patton II did in the Argentinian Civil War between the German backed Fascists and the American Backed Republicans. The Patton II's against Panzer 10's was some fun engagements, especially in the maneuver room of Patagonia. The eventual Fascist win had more to do with US support being pulled from public outcry then problems with US equipment they used. Its a shame we had to pull out....