DBWI: Communist Russia in the Second Great War

Suppose that the Red Army hadn't lost their revolution in 1919, but had instead gone on to rule the territory we know as the Russian Empire, at least until the Second Great War, if not longer.

How long could such a large Communist government have lasted, and what effect would it have had on the war? Would they have sided with the Communists who ran Germany at the start of the war, or with Britain's Grand Coalition? Would there have been another Great War, at all?
 
Its difficult to say, a Communist Russia would have severely altered the geopolitical landscape in Europe, and might have provoked a sterner Western response against the Communists in Germany. If this is case, then I think the Second Great War would look much more like an alliance of Great Britain, France, Spain, and Germany against the Red Russian beast. If this is not the case, then it is quite possible that Russia would have allied itself with Germany, and the war again becomes a very different ballgame. Perhaps in such a scenario, the U.S. would be forced to abandon its isolationism and launch an expeditionary force as it did in the first war.
 
I think the Allies would allow the right wing and the radical leftists to cut into each other during the armistice period. It would make for a weaker Reich when it comes to dictating peace terms the following year. If it looks like the leftists are gaining the upperhand, discreetly allow some weapons caches to be discovered by the conservatives. The Allies hated the Kaiserreich but they'd rather have a ghost of that over a Bolshevik Sister Republic. And if the conservatives start winning without Allied "assistance," then put a little more squeeze on in Paris.
 

Baskilisk

Banned
I think it would be very easy to see the communists in Germany stay in power through the whole war, possibly allying with Russia. That way they wouldn't have been so surrounded by the coalition's allies economically.
 
"Worker's Paradise," what a crock.

This is ASB. The very idea of a "people's revolution" succeeding is totally absurd! Workers are workers. They go about their little jobs, never thinking, just blindly accepting whatever we fat-cat types choose to give them. They weren't cohesive enough to take control, how could they be expected to govern once they got it?

And Marxism itself leads to paranoia. You couldn't open your mouth for fear of being shipped off to some god-awful camp in Siberia just for saying the wrong thing. It'd be like speaking in a verbal minefield. Who wants to live like that?

And Russia is mostly agricultural anyway. The Marxists go on and on about "progress," "class struggle," "industrialization," etc. etc. etc! The things they propose would bankrupt our economy and cause the closure of millions of farms in the heartland, thus leading to mass starvation.

Progress, my ass. Capitalism is the way of the future.
 
"Worker's Paradise," what a crock.

This is ASB. The very idea of a "people's revolution" succeeding is totally absurd! Workers are workers. They go about their little jobs, never thinking, just blindly accepting whatever we fat-cat types choose to give them. They weren't cohesive enough to take control, how could they be expected to govern once they got it?

And Marxism itself leads to paranoia. You couldn't open your mouth for fear of being shipped off to some god-awful camp in Siberia just for saying the wrong thing. It'd be like speaking in a verbal minefield. Who wants to live like that?

And Russia is mostly agricultural anyway. The Marxists go on and on about "progress," "class struggle," "industrialization," etc. etc. etc! The things they propose would bankrupt our economy and cause the closure of millions of farms in the heartland, thus leading to mass starvation.

Progress, my ass. Capitalism is the way of the future.
Why would Marxism inevitably lead to restrictions on freedom of speech? Maybe it's different where you are, but in Britain, the Socialist Labour party's always going on about "freedom to say this, freedom to do that" etc. I mean, they've never been in power of course, but they seem pretty comitted to free speech...

I agree about the agriculture though, Marx's theories are clearly intended for industrialised societies. Germany's a more likely place for it to be applied, IMHO.
 
I somehow doubt that with 2 communist counties that the UK would have any form of socialised medicine. There would be too much fear of being thought of as a communist to suggest it.
If they ever did socialise medicine they would have done it much later than 1971.

I expect Zuolin and Xueliang would have had a much harder time pulling China back together than they did in our timeline, what with the Russians proving Mao with weapons and training, though they would obviously win in the end with Russia defeat.

Japan might have also been more interested in China if they did not have the Maritime Province, Karafuto and South Kamchatka.
In fact Japan might have been a far more expansionist nation with Marxist on their doorstep. I could see a war between Japan and Siam happening.
Japan might even attack European possessions, though they would be defeated very quickly if they attacked British ones. A war between Japan and the Empire would be very unlikely though.
 
The boshelviks never had a chance. That leader nutjob, whatshisname...Lebin? Nonetheless,once the Second Great War came,they would have collapsed.
 
Bolshevik? Isn't that Russian for "The Majority"?

Yes, I believe they are the most important rebel faction, I think there was another more democratic one revolutionary group called "The Minority", which I think evolved into the modern Russian socialist party.

I think with 2 powerful communist nations in the world then it would have been much worse world to live in.

I think the history of the British Empire would have been much different. I expect we would have become less democratic, and with the resources of Russia then I don’t think that we would have let go of the resources of India, certainly not as early as 1954.

The Empire would probably still be under direct rule, and the Imperial federation would never have formed, and we would have probably brought the dominions under direct control again.

I seem to recall reading about extreme nationalist groups in Weimar Germany. Perhaps the Second Great War would be between extreme right wing nations of the UK, France, Japan and Germany and the left wing Russia going alone with a few Chinese allies.

It's hard to think of Germany as being right wing, but who knows? Having a real communist nation might frighten Germans away from communism.
 
Is it possible that in such a scenario the United States could have been drawn into the War? President Lindbergh managed to keep the U.S. to its isolationist philosophy during the war, and it wasn't until the late 50's or so that the U.S. really started getting involved again in international dealings in a big fashion. What kinds of effects do you think this would have had on America? If their involvement was terribly significant, I'd imagine they would likely have to start employing African-American soldiers as they did in the first Great War. Could something like this lead to an earlier civil rights movement TTL, as opposed to having to wait until the early 70's as in OTL?
 
Well it might be possible if they were allies with the UK and the French Union.

They both had a much more enlightened view of Africans, and with the US being less hostile and resentful to France and Britain, black people might have had a easier time of it in the US.

But if my right win idea is right, then it could be quite the opposite. Communists, for their many faults are in favour racial equality. This might have made our side more racist if there had been more communists to fight.
 
Yes, I believe they are the most important rebel faction, I think there was another more democratic one revolutionary group called "The Minority", which I think evolved into the modern Russian socialist party.

I think with 2 powerful communist nations in the world then it would have been much worse world to live in.

I think the history of the British Empire would have been much different. I expect we would have become less democratic, and with the resources of Russia then I don’t think that we would have let go of the resources of India, certainly not as early as 1954.

The Empire would probably still be under direct rule, and the Imperial federation would never have formed, and we would have probably brought the dominions under direct control again.

I seem to recall reading about extreme nationalist groups in Weimar Germany. Perhaps the Second Great War would be between extreme right wing nations of the UK, France, Japan and Germany and the left wing Russia going alone with a few Chinese allies.

It's hard to think of Germany as being right wing, but who knows? Having a real communist nation might frighten Germans away from communism.

The democratic ones were called the minority?! Some crazy stuff there.

I agree that the British Empire would be a much worse off place. Probably the anti-Communism would leave colonialism in place well up until the '70s, at the earliest. And it's doubtful we'd have any sort of State-run industries, or even the Healthcare Commission! We'd see a world divided into extreme right and extreme left wing, with none of the sensible middle ground we've seen in OTL.
 
Well, there is also the argument that the Karl Liebknecht and Rosa Luxembourg would have clashed with the political leadership of a "Bolshevik Union". Consider that during WWI, Kaiser Wilhelm II backed the Bolsheviks. Such an action would surely have repercussions on future relations.

As for other affairs, would Issac Asimov and Golda Meir, with Russian and British emigres been allowed to form the Birobidzhan Republic in 1967? For many the Jewish autonomous republic was a death blow for the Zionist movement until 1974 when Meir Kahane launched his campaign.
 
Assuming that France-UK-Japan win in this timeline, it's hard to predict. The Empire of Greater Japan might have claimed that region. Or having greater Japanese presence on the mainland and a weaker, defeated Russia would mean that the Jews could get a much bigger nation.
In that case they could be very successful, with China, Japan and Russia on their doorstep allowing for easy trade.

And when you say Colonialism, I think you mean Imperialism. Colonialism is home rule like what was implemented in OTL, Imperialism is being ruled driectly from London.

And people do crazy things, its hard to imagine rejecting democracy and capitalism in our stable world, but hunger is very powerful. People will happily throw they vote away for black bread.
 
The boshelviks never had a chance. That leader nutjob, whatshisname...Lebin? Nonetheless,once the Second Great War came,they would have collapsed.

It was Lenin. C'mon, get it right, it wasn't like he was some obscure bloke from the footnotes of East European history, he led the most violent political upheaval of modern times!
 
OOC: I believe that was too, Lenin would be pretty well known even if he failed.



Speaking of East European History, what that would be like? The White Russians grudgingly accepted the independence of parts of their Empire for military aid. Would a communist Russia try and reclaim Poland, Finland, etc?
Perhaps the Whites would loose the Finnish Civil war with a communist Russia to aid the Reds.

Poland would probably also be the place the second war started, and sandwiched between 2 large powerful and hostile nations, she probably would not last as long as she did in OTL.


I wonder what Russian-German relations would be like. I expect they would be very close, and might try and unite into one nation, creating a vast socialist empire.
 
Top