DBWI: China didn't industrialize

This thought has been in my mind for a days now.

Say what if the Song dynasty didn't have an industrial revolution.

I know it's sorta ASB.

So let's just say before the industrial revolution a barbarian tribe, let's just say the mongols but it could be any barbarians. Attacked the middle kingdom and conquered it(I'm begining to hear people shouting ASB ^_^) and thus preventing the industrial revolution.

What could be it's consequences?
Would another people have industrialized maybe the Maya or Aztecs in the east? Or the Arabs or Caucasians in the west?
 
It's not that ASB. Remember that the Song regime had little love for the military and their previous war affairs had ended quite badly. The only problem is that I don't see mongolians or turkmens as their main foes; the Jurchens would have still been able to cause them problems without the famous agreement of 1163 that provided almost two centuries of peace in the area.

Industrialization worked early for the Chinese because they had all the necessary tools (resources, trade, a strong commercial class, lack of military conflicts). I'd say the Arabs could have achieved that, but only if they had managed to unite rather than break up in numerous pieces. The same goes for the Europeans. You need a strong, centralized state to achieve the results Song China got in the 12th-14th centuries, there is no other way.

Now, as an European, I admit I'm a bit jealous of their results but considering we are flooding the Asian markets with our cheaper industrial products, I'd say it's just a matter of time until we beat them at their own game! :D
 
It's not that ASB. Remember that the Song regime had little love for the military and their previous war affairs had ended quite badly. The only problem is that I don't see mongolians or turkmens as their main foes; the Jurchens would have still been able to cause them problems without the famous agreement of 1163 that provided almost two centuries of peace in the area.

Industrialization worked early for the Chinese because they had all the necessary tools (resources, trade, a strong commercial class, lack of military conflicts). I'd say the Arabs could have achieved that, but only if they had managed to unite rather than break up in numerous pieces. The same goes for the Europeans. You need a strong, centralized state to achieve the results Song China got in the 12th-14th centuries, there is no other way.

Now, as an European, I admit I'm a bit jealous of their results but considering we are flooding the Asian markets with our cheaper industrial products, I'd say it's just a matter of time until we beat them at their own game! :D



As a person here in the Chinese province of the Philippines I get what you mean by flooding our markets with your goods ^_^

I could just imagine about what would have happens if it was your people who industrialized


What amazes me is you didn't include the people from the east namely the Aztecs or
The Mayans.
So meaning that them industrializing is highly unlikely?
 
Well...I don't think that's an ASB too...
Surely now the Chinese are the most advanced people on Earth...but I read somewhere that now European and Mesoamerican (and even African and Middle-Eastern) nation-states are quickly modernizing themselves...
I wonder though, what if there was a massive steppe barbarians invasion (before 15th century, of course...when the Chinese greatly reforming their army with guns and cannons)...? Could a gun-less Song dynasty survive?
 
As a person here in the Chinese province of the Philippines I get what you mean by flooding our markets with your goods ^_^

I could just imagine about what would have happens if it was your people who industrialized

What amazes me is you didn't include the people from the east namely the Aztecs or
The Mayans.
So meaning that them industrializing is highly unlikely?

You came, we saw, we got influenced. I don't believe that we could have done it without all the characteristics that helped you achieve it. We were fighting among themselves, we had virtually no useable trade good, the technological advances were pitiful, to say the least.

When you discovered the eastern continent, the Mayans and the Aztecs were even worse than we were: fighting among themselves as a religious ritual, no useable trade good, no good techs (come on, where in hell was the wheel?). They were sitting ducks, happy in their preindustrial societies. Why would that change in your absence?

In fact, here's one more argument: instead of conquering them (or us, for that matter, you had surely the potential after the Liu dynasty took over in 1418), you accepted a status-quo, happy to just dominate your asian sphere and sell your products abroad to the savages of the East and West. Without a proper occupation, even if they certainly knew about your industrial exploits, they changed their ways very slowly, still relaying on the old traditions of their religion. We did it quicklier, but we still needed a couple of wars to properly unite the loose ends. My point is the evolution took a long time, with all the knowledge and Chinese experience to back us up. It's hard to become Chinese over-night.

Now, if Europe would have been in your shoes, considering our conflictual nature in that period, I'd say we would have imposed our will through force. Not so much peace, but certainly more advancement throughout the world.

Well...I don't think that's an ASB too...
Surely now the Chinese are the most advanced people on Earth...but I read somewhere that now European and Mesoamerican (and even African and Middle-Eastern) nation-states are quickly modernizing themselves...
I wonder though, what if there was a massive steppe barbarians invasion (before 15th century, of course...when the Chinese greatly reforming their army with guns and cannons)...? Could a gun-less Song dynasty survive?

I have no doubt. The Jurchens were certainly stronger than any steppe barbarian tribe of that time, and they still had to accept peace after the 1130-1150s wars. I can't see how uncivilized barbarians would have destroyed a civilization on the brink of greatness...
 
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