DBWI: Case Yellow Succeeds?

Would the Germans have done better had they not gotten sucked into the Norway mess? Talk about a Pyrrhic victory, the won but in addition to their navy and air force taking heavy casualties, they lost a lot of quality infantry and from what I understand a disproportionate number of good officers.

Plus the paratroopers taking such heavy casualties pretty much turned Hitler off to that sort of operation in the future. I know the original plan called for para-drops into the Netherlands and Belgium but the debacle in Norway killed that idea. They probably wouldn't have made that much of a difference but who knows?
 
More Luftwaffe support and it would have worked. I wonder how many more Stukas and 109s Germany could have had if not for the worthless heavy bomber program?

Yes, they had their Cult of the Bomber just like the RAF and USAAF only unlike the British and Americans who at least built high quality heavy bombers, the Germans couldn't build one worth its weight in spare parts but that didn't stop them from trying.
 
Would the Germans have done better had they not gotten sucked into the Norway mess? Talk about a Pyrrhic victory, the won but in addition to their navy and air force taking heavy casualties, they lost a lot of quality infantry and from what I understand a disproportionate number of good officers.

Plus the paratroopers taking such heavy casualties pretty much turned Hitler off to that sort of operation in the future. I know the original plan called for para-drops into the Netherlands and Belgium but the debacle in Norway killed that idea. They probably wouldn't have made that much of a difference but who knows?

What really hurt the Germans in Norway was the Norwegians using National Radio to call up its army and the King urging his people to resist

This caused the German plan to be rushed and we end up with several units starting the attack early and others late.

The resulting casualties to their Paratroopers was bad but the sheer number of JU52's that where lost in the attacks. the Pilots of those aircraft were largely training instructors - so apart from the loss of airlift capacity it also heavily impacted the Luftwaffe's ability to train pilots which in part contributed to the eventual Entente Air Superiority.

Lack of paratroopers also impacted the Dutch campaign with Dutch forces denying the German Army use of several key bridges early on any buying the Dutch army time to redeploy.

And then there is the loss to the German Navy!!!

3 heavy and 2 light Cruisers lost + 2 light Cruisers damaged (mostly to the Norwegian fortresses)

15 Destroyers destroyed or declared total losses and worst of all Scharnhorst and Gneisenau getting badly damaged by Renown on the 9th April with Gneisenau being declared a total loss* and Scharnhorst taking 6 months before she could sortie again.

With only U Boats to threaten the Atlantic convoys this pretty much freed up the Home fleet for other duties and with Italy not getting involved more British and French DDs could be freed up for Convoy duties.

And when Salazar allowed British bases in the Azores in late 41 the ability to cover convoys with Maritime patrol aircraft increased dramatically.

*Her C Turret was used to replace Scharnhorst's destroyed B Turret and while some work was started on repairing Gneisenau in late 41 and there was a plan to refit her with 3 twin 15" guns, the war ended before work could start.
 
The only place through which the Heer could go to France is the West of Belgium, Lorraine being protected by the Maginot line and the passage of tanks into the Ardennes being ASB.

Even if we admit the Heer could succesfully go to Western Belgium, and its difficulties to finish the Polish campagn temoign the very hard hurdles, the German army would get laminated, as we can see from the 1870 Franco-Prussian war.

And there is a big difference relative to then: France has now a colonial empire in which to draw numerous native soldiers, along with sending the capital to Algiers.
 

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What really hurt the Germans in Norway was the Norwegians using National Radio to call up its army and the King urging his people to resist.

This caused the German plan to be rushed and we end up with several units starting the attack early and others late.

Well that is why you have national radio. To be fair, Norway government rightfully expected war with UK, it was a matter days, hours even by which Germans preempted it. Ironicaly had they waited a day or two, Entente would made the biggest blunder since Galipoli and made themselves agressors on par with Hitler.

The resulting casualties to their Paratroopers was bad but the sheer number of JU52's that where lost in the attacks. the Pilots of those aircraft were largely training instructors - so apart from the loss of airlift capacity it also heavily impacted the Luftwaffe's ability to train pilots which in part contributed to the eventual Entente Air Superiority.

Lack of paratroopers also impacted the Dutch campaign with Dutch forces denying the German Army use of several key bridges early on any buying the Dutch army time to redeploy.


Well to German favour I must say they made do with what they had. Had not these three guys manning the AA gun in Eben-Emeal fortress the german panzers could rolled over Eastern Belgium. They took all the bridges by glider attack, but failed to secure fort itself. It took Wermacht over a day to remove the obstacle. Had they been faster...

On the Dutch part - one of brigdes was seized by a german company carried by floatplanes which landed just by the bridge. I bet the defenders were too busy clapping their hands to resist.

With only U Boats to threaten the Atlantic convoys this pretty much freed up the Home fleet for other duties and with Italy not getting involved more British and French DDs could be freed up for Convoy duties.

Well with perfect hindsight we could say that it would be better if Italy, Portugal and USA had declared war on Germany in 1.9.1939. But back then nobody would believe that a nation at war with superior enemy would make internal genocide a top priority. Needless to say neutrals acted at their best interest, having learned tough lessons from Great War, and benefiting from Entente orders on military supplies. Light patrol bombers made by Caproni, made U-boat life short and precarious.

Likewise P-40 was used by every Entente country, with good effect.
 
.. and the passage of tanks into the Ardennes being ASB.

That last is nonsense. In the 1942 Victory offensive the AEF deployed over 1,200 medium M3 & M4 tanks & nearly as many M3 light tanks through the Ardennes. 2400 halftracks, 90,000 medium trucks, and 15,000 heavy trucks supported the AEF attack between Namur & Luxembourg City. At the end of it over 120,000 US Army vehicles, including over 5,000 tracked vehicles passed through the Ardennes in four days after breaking the Meuse River defense line. I really cant see why the Germans could not have reproduced a similar movement in reverse had the French army not been present in the Ardennes.
 
That last is nonsense. In the 1942 Victory offensive the AEF deployed over 1,200 medium M3 & M4 tanks & nearly as many M3 light tanks through the Ardennes. 2400 halftracks, 90,000 medium trucks, and 15,000 heavy trucks supported the AEF attack between Namur & Luxembourg City. At the end of it over 120,000 US Army vehicles, including over 5,000 tracked vehicles passed through the Ardennes in four days after breaking the Meuse River defense line. I really cant see why the Germans could not have reproduced a similar movement in reverse had the French army not been present in the Ardennes.

Nah, they did try, just not there and in not the same amount of numbers as proposed by Guderian. They did well at first until forward acting commanders like Leclerc died breaking the "armored fist" in a slugging match using a mix of anti-tank weaponry and whatever tanks they could scrounge from reserves and what were shipped in. Didn't hurt that the Belgians still had some AMC 35s at the point that did a fine job spearheading a counter attack during that fight. Not as well known as the B1s, which laughed at pretty much anything the Germans could chuck at them, but useful in causing the offensive to collapse and withdraw while the B1s were brought in as mobile pillboxes and their own little armored points.

If Gamelin was more decisive, the Germans would have lost most of their mobile infantry.
 
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