John Fredrick Parker
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Gah, I meant "Orthodox Hinduism"; and you're right, of course, that more specific terms like "Vendanta" are generally more useful.
DBWI: Buddhism falters in Roman Empire
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What about Thekla of Assyria? She converted to Buddhism and planted the Bodhi tree in Rome. Thekla's family wanted her to marry a really old man when she was thirteen, and she didn't want to. She would sit locked in her bedroom everyday listening to people outside and felt empowered and decided to run away. I think the story goes that a gang of Buddhists came to her village and told stories of their ancestors. She heard tales of Sanghamitta's journey to Sri Lanka and felt so inspired she converted. Which is why we have the Bikhhuni Sangha in Rome today. Thekla converted all the vestal virgins.
So maybe you should butterfly Thekla's conversion to Buddhism somehow?
Out of context (OOC): My first try with replying to a DBWI. I hope I got it right! Thekla ITTL is from the OTL christian story of Thekla and Saul. Saul/Paul was the first pope. In this timeline she converts to Buddhism and turns into Rome's analog of Sanghamitta. You can ignore me if I got everything totally wrong!
So maybe you should butterfly Thekla's conversion to Buddhism somehow?
Out of context (OOC): My first try with replying to a DBWI. I hope I got it right! Thekla ITTL is from the OTL christian story of Thekla and Saul. Saul/Paul was the first pope. In this timeline she converts to Buddhism and turns into Rome's analog of Sanghamitta. You can ignore me if I got everything totally wrong!
Possibly, although I think that Bodhisattva Augustine played a much bigger role in the spread of Buddhism in the Roman Empire. As an educated Roman citizen he was able to make the respectable case for Buddhism and its compatibility with the Neo-Platonism of the day, whilst his Manichee origins played a big role in convincing many of that faith to convert to, or at least syncretise elements of, Buddhism.
Thekla helped plant some of the early communities, but it was Augustine who helped to bring it into the mainstream of the Roman spiritual melange.
John Fredrick Parker
Donor
@Shoshana and @Alexander the Average -- I tend to side more with more *structuralist* explanations of Buddhism's western rise (that focus on things like demographics, trade, imperial religious policy, etc), rather than more classic narratives that focus on individual teachers. But I do realize that's something of a debate in scholarship of buddhist history.
@Shoshana - OOC: You got it right and nice work!
IC: @John Fredrick Parker - A bit, all right. I can see both sides - I definitely think that one has to look at the larger picture, but at the same time I feel that without courageous individuals like Thekla the spread would have been very very different.
One thing that occurs to me is that without Buddhism, the growth of the Northern lands and the formation of the Northern Empire would have been quite different (if not butterflied away, of course). Buddhism is very much a faith that's for everyone, not just elites. And centuries ago, the peoples of the North had very proto-democratic tendencies (the Thing). When the Northern Empire became 'official', the Great Althing was very much approved of by the monastic community, and from its formation until the Empire fractured during the Succession Wars the Great Althing always reserved a portion of its membership for the most prominent abbots.
IC: @John Fredrick Parker - A bit, all right. I can see both sides - I definitely think that one has to look at the larger picture, but at the same time I feel that without courageous individuals like Thekla the spread would have been very very different.
One thing that occurs to me is that without Buddhism, the growth of the Northern lands and the formation of the Northern Empire would have been quite different (if not butterflied away, of course). Buddhism is very much a faith that's for everyone, not just elites. And centuries ago, the peoples of the North had very proto-democratic tendencies (the Thing). When the Northern Empire became 'official', the Great Althing was very much approved of by the monastic community, and from its formation until the Empire fractured during the Succession Wars the Great Althing always reserved a portion of its membership for the most prominent abbots.
I feel like individuals like Thekla are often not examined as critically as they should be. Could she really convert all of the Vestal Virgins? I mean there were only six, but they were the heads of the Cult of Vesta. Why don't we have any account of why the the Vestal Cult disappeared other than Augustine's clearly hagiographic biography of Thekla? Flavius Trajan's persecution of pagans is only obliquely mentioned in Augustine's The Wheel-Turning Realm and that book was meant to address pagan concerns about the growth of Buddhism!
And here we come to the problem all ancient what-ifs come to: we can't imagine a world without something this essential to the modern experience of history. Think of all the "what if Hannibal crushed Rome forever" threads and all the "what if Boddus was never born" threads. They all result in "well these would be the immediate consequences, but past that who knows." Like would Things even be an organ of Northern government? Would the butterflies from Rome lead the Jutic tribes to be displaced into Britain, where they adopt Roman-style Duxal rule? Could the Bolghar Rus keep moving along the Baltic and replace their Things with Khahans? We know they could sail, that's how they conquered Rus from the Baltic to the Black. Would the Bolghars even go up Rus without the Buddhist monks establishing trade routes with Constantinopolis? Would they go for the much richer, if harder target of Trace instead? Would Constantine even establish a second capital on Byzantiom?
Basically when we go this far back, what ifs can get out of hand.
And here we come to the problem all ancient what-ifs come to: we can't imagine a world without something this essential to the modern experience of history. Think of all the "what if Hannibal crushed Rome forever" threads and all the "what if Boddus was never born" threads. They all result in "well these would be the immediate consequences, but past that who knows." Like would Things even be an organ of Northern government? Would the butterflies from Rome lead the Jutic tribes to be displaced into Britain, where they adopt Roman-style Duxal rule? Could the Bolghar Rus keep moving along the Baltic and replace their Things with Khahans? We know they could sail, that's how they conquered Rus from the Baltic to the Black. Would the Bolghars even go up Rus without the Buddhist monks establishing trade routes with Constantinopolis? Would they go for the much richer, if harder target of Trace instead? Would Constantine even establish a second capital on Byzantiom?
Basically when we go this far back, what ifs can get out of hand.
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I was always told Bodhisattva Augustine tried to banish the Bikhhuni Sangha. He's not been a popular person in history with me and my family. I think without Buddhism Augustine would continue with his Neo-Platonist ideas. He could banish the priestesses of whatever new religion emerges turning it into a male dominated thing. And we all know from history how male dominated religions turn out...
I'm Jewish and have a Zoroastrian-Druze boyfriend. Here, in my home town of Kyriat Rimon, Levantine Republic, Jews, Zoroastrians and Buddhists live together in peace. we've been like this for hundreds of years. We debate and learn from each other. Doing good deeds. Our Mesopotamian Economic Union allows free travel from Tsor to Shiraz. Wthout Buddhism and the Zoroastrian villages of the Golan, I don't think we'd enjoy the peace we have today. From what I've learned in my homeschooling, some of the other alternatives were kind of male dominated and war-like in their attitudes.
Yes, I can kind of agree and understand your point of view. Trade was vital for the spread of Buddhism. Most people though can relate to the works of individual historical figures. I love the Thekla stories, even though I'm not Buddhist. I can kind of relate to her. I'd be tempted to do the same in her situation. Stories of individual teachers give hope and empowerment. They were ordinary people getting out of awkward situations and accomplishing amazing things.
Yes, this is true and a scary thought. without Buddhism do you think there would be a Neo-platonist or Manichee religion instead? The Monastic requirements of Buddhism really made ideological conflict with Zoroastrianism. Zoroastrians and Buddhists today chat about it a lot. Its a hot topic for debate.
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@BootOnFace - point. Of course, pagan scholarship is the same in reverse. Trajan's 'persecution' of pagans being a perfect example - it was a taxation regime aimed at the more conservative Roman priesthood. It certainly wasn't an attempt to stamp out the traditional religions - Freezing Hell, the Greco-Roman gods are recognised variously as Asuras, Devas and Bodhisattvas in the case of Minerva and Diana. But the way the taxes are described by pagan scholars, you'd think they were trying to actually destroy paganism as a faith.
@Shoshana - I agree. Buddhism was a great benefit to Hibernia - it helped nullify the nastier parts of our Druidical faith. Modern-day Druids are fairly liberal and heavily Buddhist-influenced, but before the Northern Empire brought the Three Jewels and urban civilisation it was a fairly dark religion (and make-dominated, involving a lot of human sacrifice...).
I don't know about neo-Platonism. Maybe a mystery religion?
And now I really want to take a holiday in the Levamtine Republic...
@Shoshana - I agree. Buddhism was a great benefit to Hibernia - it helped nullify the nastier parts of our Druidical faith. Modern-day Druids are fairly liberal and heavily Buddhist-influenced, but before the Northern Empire brought the Three Jewels and urban civilisation it was a fairly dark religion (and make-dominated, involving a lot of human sacrifice...).
I don't know about neo-Platonism. Maybe a mystery religion?
And now I really want to take a holiday in the Levamtine Republic...
Another thing is that Buddhism lightly infused Europe with Hinduism, as it did with East Asia. All those legends of the land of India, with "Argunus" of the line of Dionysus fighting for his kingdom in India against "Dyspolemus" supported by the avatar of Jupiter in the form of "Crisnus", are clearly based upon the Mahabharata. And Minerva playing the lute is based upon her Indian cognate Sarasvati playing the veena. Without Buddhism, those tales and new godly characteristics would certainly be butterflied away.
OOC: I based this Hindu influence of Europe on that of East Asia, where along Buddhism came some Hindu concepts. For instance, this Japanese goddess is based upon Sarasvati.
OOC: I based this Hindu influence of Europe on that of East Asia, where along Buddhism came some Hindu concepts. For instance, this Japanese goddess is based upon Sarasvati.
OOC: this has to be one of the most well done DBWI for years!
IC: Without Boddus would the Jutics have expanded the Ingwe religion into monotheism like some specfic writers claim? Though I should point out that I don't subscribe to the "Ingwall" hypothesis on Jutic Boddism.
IC: Without Boddus would the Jutics have expanded the Ingwe religion into monotheism like some specfic writers claim? Though I should point out that I don't subscribe to the "Ingwall" hypothesis on Jutic Boddism.
Something like Neoplatonism worked pretty well in India, what with the sudden rise of the similar Vedanta school during the Neo-Kushan Empire. Indeed, a few Hindu texts refer to the singular Vedantic God "Brahman" even today. But then, of course, state-sponsored Buddhist scholars in the Neo-Kushan Empire wrote a series of texts accepted into Hindu thought that promoted the Buddhist school of thought which were able to crush the rising Vedanta school, to the point that today it's a minor religion. Neoplatonism could work similarly in Rome, except without the whole "state sponsoring Buddhism" thing which could ultimately lead to a Neoplatonic Religio Romana.
Unsure... It's possible. Of course, that assumes no external influence in the absence of Boddus - could be that another religion gains prominence and exerts influence in the Northlands.
Interestingly enough: the current abbot of the Skellig monastery is from Uppsala - even if the Northern Empire is lost to history, the Kingdom of Hibernia and Iceland has close links to the Northern realms. And he summed up teachings on the relationship between Boddism and worship of the Aesir in an interview he once did: he reckoned that the adherents of the Aesir took on Boddism so well because the people of the North had already - with the teachings of Ragnarok and the subsequent remaking of the world by Baldr - been finding their way towards the Boddist idea of birth, death and rebirth.
Certainly, Loge and the Jotnar fit the role of the Jealous Gods very well...
OOC: It's pretty awesome alright.
This is actually a very old school of Hinduism and addressed in the Pali Canon in many different suttas:
The Brahma-nimantanika Sutta is one of them
and is referred to as Maha Brahma in this discourse: Teacher of the Devas
Maha Brahma thinks it is an all-powerful creator god, and encourages worship thusly, but Boddus shows it that it is only another being that came into existence and will surely leave existence one day. And thus needs the Dharma.
OOC: This is actually Buddhist canon I am referring to and older than the POD. Buddhism has suttas addressing every little sect and philosophy of "Hinduism" around at the period.
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Ah, but Brahma the creator god (who is worshipped in India and Southeast Asia to this day), the least-worshipped god of the Trimurti, is not the same thing as Brahman the all-powerful unified Vedantic god, the union of every god in existence.
Brahma is the creator, but he does not have all of the characteristics of Brahman.
One wouldn't have the parallelism in certain tales between East and West. For instance...well, look at The Lay of the Wanderer.
For those unfamiliar, it's one story of how Donar became a Bodhisattva. His vainglory and bragging offend the Aesir, and they try to take Mjolnir away but fail: but then the Boddus wins it from him after a game of riddles. But he promises that it'll be returned if Donar travels to the East with the young monk Erik the Wanderer and protects him. And learns humility and wisdom in the process.
There's a Celtic version as well, from one of the monasteries in Hibernia, where the two are joined by Uathach, the daughter of the warrior-woman Scathach. There's actually a scholarly argument over the translation of that version - some claim that the text should be interpreted as she and Erik being simply friends, others claim that the text describes them as lovers. A lot of ink been spilled over that debate...
Point is: there's also a similar Chinese legend.
For those unfamiliar, it's one story of how Donar became a Bodhisattva. His vainglory and bragging offend the Aesir, and they try to take Mjolnir away but fail: but then the Boddus wins it from him after a game of riddles. But he promises that it'll be returned if Donar travels to the East with the young monk Erik the Wanderer and protects him. And learns humility and wisdom in the process.
There's a Celtic version as well, from one of the monasteries in Hibernia, where the two are joined by Uathach, the daughter of the warrior-woman Scathach. There's actually a scholarly argument over the translation of that version - some claim that the text should be interpreted as she and Erik being simply friends, others claim that the text describes them as lovers. A lot of ink been spilled over that debate...
Point is: there's also a similar Chinese legend.
Note also that that story parallels how Ingwe won his runestaff, died but begot his reincarnated self upon his companion Uta.
yes. Probably. Most are just stories passed through generations before somebody decides to write them. I know the stories are not historically accurate, I feel there is elements of truth in them though. And they are fun to read. In the stories I read, Thekla was invited by the vestal virgins and they had a girls night in.
aww you should totally take a holiday. I can suggest lots of places you can visit. Come during one of our religious holidays. We have a female rabbi, which is great. She organized a huge street party for Purim, and I had such an amazing time last Sukkot. If you get time to visit my home town, check out the gardens and pomegranate forests. Me and my parents sometimes go kayaking down the river Jordan which is fun. You should visit the Zoroastrian villages in the Golan too. They believe in another prophet after Zarathustra. There's a nice little restaurant which serves the most amazing pomegranate soup. There's also the Nabatean town of Petra-Hadit too, close to the ruins of old Petra. Most people stay for the ruins and really ignore the town. They have lots of yummy food there and a great market.
There's been a little balagan lately though. A few extreme ultraorthodox groups in Yarushalem still refuse to accept a female rabbi. They're the very small minority though, thankfully.
I think there's parallels in the Thekla and Sanghamitta stories too. Am I right that lots of Buddhists believe the parallel historical figures are actually reincarnations of each other? So Thekla is a future incarnation of Sanghamitta.
I was just thinking about how our food would change. Will we still enjoy the spiced rices and sushi dishes available at most take outs? What would our street food be instead? Perhaps Egyptian cuisine's more popular. Food in the Roman Empire before Buddhism was kind of strange. Romans had unusual palates. When the Romans were suddenly flooded with rice and all those eastern spices everything changed. Spices like cinnamon and cloves were no longer something only the super wealthy could afford. I think without Buddhism a lot of people's diets, especially in the northern parts of the empire, would be much more heavily meat based. Which I think would trigger a huge ecological disaster in this world's analog of today. Unless whatever religion replacing Buddhism develops a similar environmental awareness.
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Isn't the Buddha seen in some parts of India as an avatar of the Hindu god Vishnu
There is also the infusion of elements of the Ramayana in in the Remus and Romulus myth.
John Fredrick Parker
Donor
The history of rice in the west is kind of weird; it arrived by way of trade with the east along with spices (which yes, did have a massive influence), but for most of subsequent history never really caught on. In Europe and West Asia, our cereal grain of choice has pretty much always been wheat, though the North developed a taste for Maize based foods (among others) following the Atlantean Exchange.* And yes, there were periods when it certain rice meals were in fashion, and the Mediterranean rich would subsidize rice farms in certain places for awhile, but until the recent invention of fast food, it was unknown to most of the population, and even then it's still more popular in Egypt and surrounding regions (here in the North, it's still considered something of a foreign dish).
OOC: Trying to figure out what this is a reference to...
*TTL's term for "Columbian Exchange"
I read that too - there's a few different versions of that, all really entertaining. You got the idea that the writers wanted it to be the gentler, more 'fun' side of the religion
That sounds really great! You've convinced me. Especially the food
I like pomegranate but getting it here can be hard...And that's really cool you having a female rabbi.
That's good that they're a minority...
Sounds like Hibernia a bit. Women could be nuns from the first appearance of the Sangha - both Hibernia and the Northlands had more experience of women in positions of temporal power than some regions did, so of course the new religion could have female leaders. Actually in Hibernia, back when the Three Jewels first got brought the convents provided education to girls who might not have had the same opportunities as the daughters of chieftains (and still do). But even now, more 'orthodox' Druids say that only men can actually become Druids. The newer schools of thought disagree, of course.
The orthodox Druids only really have currency in the more backwoods parts of the country of course. In Black Pool* and the East and South - where the major cities were built during Northern rule - it's totally liberal. And Druidical beliefs aren't followed at all in Iceland, so it's got no issues.
Gods preserve King Snorri
* OOC: Dubh Linn...