DBWI: Buddhism falters in Roman Empire

Yeah I know, the rise of Buddhism in the Mediterranean and Europe was a gradual process, so finding an exact cutoff point might be difficult. I suppose to make it somewhat easier, we'll say no PoDs prior to Augustus, since "preserve the republic" is a common enough trope as is.

Maybe the one of the early emperors makes a hash of the religious significance of his office, creating a cult that literally worships him as a heavenly god on earth (before the new imperial government had time to devise an effective check)? Or maybe one of the religions in a "foreign" corner of the empire starts taking off in popularity? Or maybe the Parthian Wars just go differently, such that trade and exchange with the Kushan Empire is more difficult? Or something else?
 
It's hard to imagine, though. I mean: Romano-Buddhism has been the dominant faith of the Mare Nostrum and the whole continent for centuries - the Bronze Temple of Mercia is one of the wonders of the world. And the monasteries were the preservers of so much knowledge...

Actually, that's one question. The Angles took on Buddhism themselves and carried it to the New World. Without it...what would interactions with the natives have been like?
 
Actually, that's one question. The Angles took on Buddhism themselves and carried it to the New World. Without it...what would interactions with the natives have been like?
Imagining a Jutish Peninsula* a thousand years after the fall of an empire untransformed by the Buddhavacana is... well, the butterflies are so many by this point, it boggles the mind.

OOC: With a PoD this early, it's perfectly possible the Anglo-Saxon Invasions of Brittain either don't happen or are done by a different "barbarian" nation.
 
OOC: With a PoD this early, it's perfectly possible the Anglo-Saxon Invasions of Brittain either don't happen or are done by a different "barbarian" nation.

OOC: Agreed - carefully didn't mention Britain for them ;)

IC: I agree. I mean, hard to imagine a Europe where worship of Donar, Bodhisattva of Thunder, isn't so widespread...
 
It's actually quite easy - keep Kanishka the Great of the Kushan Empire from conquering the Maha-Kshatrapa along the Indian western coast. Rudradaman did put up a good fight, after all. Without ports from which to send missionaries, Kanishka the Great would have to be satisfied with merely bringing the word of the Boddus to China. Also, IOTL, nibbonus and all existence being dysphoria merged quite nicely with the Neopythagorean ethos, so that is another POD with which to avoid the rise of Buddhism in Europe.

OOC: Boddus is the Buddha, nibbonus is nirvana (from Pali nibbana), and dysphoria is suffering.
 
Yet another good POD would be to keep the Iazyges from converting. They really formed the brunt of the pressure for Rome to convert, and when Rome faltered, they took Spain and settled it with Buddhists.
 
Yet another good POD would be to keep the Iazyges from converting. They really formed the brunt of the pressure for Rome to convert, and when Rome faltered, they took Spain and settled it with Buddhists.
Wait, I thought it was the Dacians who did that? (looks it up) Wait no, you're right -- the Iazyges converted, then conquered Dacia, making Dacia Buddhist, then Dacia was annexed into Rome, bringing a large influx of buddhists into the empire; then skip ahead to the fall, and its tribes from this area who are marching into Hispania (called Iazyges by the chroniclers, though likely having more in the way of Dacian blood by this point).
No Macedonian Empire leads to no East-West transmission of Buddhism?
Alexander the Great is well before the PoD limit, my friend.
 
Wait, I thought it was the Dacians who did that? (looks it up) Wait no, you're right -- the Iazyges converted, then conquered Dacia, making Dacia Buddhist, then Dacia was annexed into Rome, bringing a large influx of buddhists into the empire; then skip ahead to the fall, and its tribes from this area who are marching into Hispania (called Iazyges by the chroniclers, though likely having more in the way of Dacian blood by this point).

That's another good point- there would be no Dacian Revival ITTL. It is crazy to think of a Dacia that doesn't extend from the Danube to Ikuulum (OTL Seoul), but without the resulting sympathy from the Buddhist dynasties in Persia, and no real way to get any troops in it is likely that the Dacians would have been assimilated into Roman culture.

Though, what kind of butterflies might that have in the east?
 
What would replace it though? Zoroastrianism? Judaism?
Judaism, on paper, is more plausible, since it's spiritual center (Jerusalem) was within the empire (if something of a backwater), and so could hypothetically be "manged" via imperial policy. And apparently there were a lot of potentially interesting splinter sects of it in the early imperial era. That said, while some of these sects sort of resemble later Buddhist institutions like monasteries, etc, I just don't see how they could be developed to fill the gaps that said institutions filled OTL (in academia, community charity, etc).

As to Zoroastrianism, I can't remember who, but there was a historian who once claimed "had the Roman and Kushan empires shared a border, the former would have rejected all religion proselytized by the latter, as they did with Parthia". Actually, now that I write that, maybe that could be our PoD right there?
It is crazy to think of a Dacia that doesn't extend from the Danube to Ikuulum (OTL Seoul)...
OOC: I'm sorry, what?
 
I've of this one obscure one, which worshipped a "Great Teacher or Rabbi" of some kind, which some early Buddhist-Roman historians compared to Buddhism, before it petered out.

And the cult leader's name was "Joshua" or something. None of them have the imperial endorsement that Buddhism had IOTL from the Kushan, so I'd say that this "Cult of Joshua" would die out sooner rather than later, and the Religio Romana would exist without the Boddus to supplement it.
 
And the cult leader's name was "Joshua" or something. None of them have the imperial endorsement that Buddhism had IOTL from the Kushan, so I'd say that this "Cult of Joshua" would die out sooner rather than later, and the Religio Romana would exist without the Boddus to supplement it.

... Why am I a cult? And obviously, you must make Jupiter a monotheistic entity to keep Rome's old identity.
 
I have to agree about the Kanishka POD being the easiest. You have to start fairly early or else you have to come up with another missionary universal religion to displace the Buddhism that's already there. Judaism is a very popular cult on this forum, but it just doesn't have the size and it's a traditional ethnoreligion with only a series of very unlikely events that led to Axum converting. Zoroastrianism is out because it was the religion of the "enemy" in Parthia and the Empire persecuted it. Manichaeism would be a good candidate for a replacer of Buddhism in the Constantinopolis era, if you keep the Huns from converting to it before conquering Persia or even have them conquer Roman land instead. The Huns heading to Europe is a pretty popular POD, so I bet there's even a TL on this site already where the Huns destroy the Roman Empire and set up a Manichaen Hunnish Empire instead. Or use some kind of early alt-Dhammus Primus movement based in pagan or even Judaic beliefs. The lure of an anti-idolatry, slave-freeing, all-equal brotherhood of man is powerful and I don't think that the movement needed to be justified by the Canon in particular, just a popular sentiment. And I doubt that any Roman society around 800-900 PD(Post-Dhammus for you heathens out there.) will be lacking in people who are agitated by Roman slavery and inequality.



OOC: Manichaeism is just the syncretic Zoroastrian-Judaic-Buddhist Persian faith that took over in many cities as a new alternative to the old religions and Buddhism at around the same time as real Manichaeism. It was adopted by the Huns to justify conquering Persia, as the old regime held to the increasingly unpopular Zoroastrianism. I'm not implying Mani as we know him happened.


Dhammus is the Romanization of Dhamma or Dharma. The Dhammus Primus movement is a radical sect of Buddhism originating in Germania Inferior and was adopted by the Franks, who used it to justify their conquest of Gaul and Italy, triggering what is popularly known as the fall for the Roman Empire, even though the Frankish king Birinus styled himself as Western Roman Emperor and was recognized as such by the Eastern Emperor. Birinus' sons however soon split the Empire into the kingdoms of Upper Francia, Lower Francia, and Italy. Dhammus Primus rejects the newer teachings of the monastics and so-called Bodhisattvas of the Empire, referring back to the Pali Canon brought from India several centuries ago. They freed slaves and executed authorities they deemed corrupt but tried to maintain the local power structures and just co-opt them. Think alt-Islam, but less based on a single personality and more Roman. It maintained a unified Sangha(church) for only three generations after Birinus, where it split into a Sangha for each kingdom. The Orthodox Sangha is still united under the Patriarch of Constantinople and includes North Africa and Syria.


Post-Dhammus dating system dates from the First Buddhist Council in 483 BC. It is used mainly by the Primus Western Europe and in the New World, which was discovered by Anglian Primus explorers. Eastern Europe and North Africa use the Roman date system of Ab Urbe Condita. All European-descended cultures use the Roman calendar, much like OTL.
 
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Sort of makes it similar to similar WIs, like "What if Hinduism made a bigger comeback in India?"

I mean, it never really declined, as Buddhism has never displaced the gods of constituent cultures so much as it has been added onto it. Of course, in India, Hinduism has had its underlying philosophy replaced by Buddhism and has had the Buddha a prominent figure. New philosophies like Vedanta rose, but none of them could get through the Buddhist philosophy dominant in the Neo-Kushan Empire.

OOC: IOTL, Buddhism never replaced Hinduism - every Indian Buddhist monarch from Ashoka to Menander to Kanishka has been well documented as having worshipped a fair many gods, with Ashoka documented as having built Shaivite temples, and Menander and Kanishka both having Hindu gods all over their coinage. And in modern Southeast Asia, local Buddhism has a lot of Hinduism in it.
 
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