DBWI: Breaking news - bomb kills the whole Jerusalem Royal Family

Wow, I hadn't thought to look back for your comments on the situation in Jerusalem... and now I almost wish I hadn't. It's so painful to read about all the hopes King Richard has now dashed.

First off, a belated welcome to these boards. [Both IC and OOC] I hope you like it here.

Second - what hopes has King Richard III dashed? On the contrary, I think he's fulfilled many of the hopes and aspirations of the Palestinians.

I'm studying at Jonah Memorial Seminary to get a post in government here, and our professors have used him as an example of what not to do. Of course, no one actually burns heretics or infidels nowadays (well, at least no one outside some backwaters), but you don't welcome them into your government, and you don't let them speak with your sponsorship!

See, that's the funny thing - most of what people outside Palestine called "heretics and infidels" back in the days of the Latin Kingdom were not really heretics and infidels at all, but were mainly political prisoners [often for no reason or fault of their own] or common criminals. Those people who were common criminals have remained in prison; those who were political prisoners have largely been rehabilitated. What many outside the Kingdom of Jerusalem also don't know is also the lengths to which the Greek Orthodox Church and even the Jewish community co-operated with the Catholic Church on numerous things - but that's another thread altogether.

Overall, I think that if you take off the religious veneer our King should be seen as an example of what to do, no matter if you're religious or non-religious - particularly in certain areas like the economy. Within my own lifetime, we have made a gigantic leap from being a poor country with very little in the way of an economy to a rich country with a very strong, diversified economy that is now the envy of the region. My country has now become a major destination for new immigrants (and even Diaspora Palestinians have started to return home, which is always a positive), and I welcome that. For new immigrants, of course, there is a learning curve and some culture shock vis-à-vis Palestinian culture and our standards, but a lot of that can be easily picked up.

And why are you studying at a seminary to get a government job when there's now the National School of Public Administration? How old are you?

Believe me, I know that Jerusalem has had problems. I prayed day and night for Richard to know how to keep the peace... and he's done it now, but at what cost? He's taken the first step on the slippery slope; before long, I'm afraid the Latin monarch of Jerusalem will rule over a kingdom that's Christian only in name. I think I might actually apply there after graduation; the Kingdom needs some devout Christians there to promote the faith.

We already have devout Christians in the Government, number one, so that's a give-in. I have to ask - are you from Palestine? If you are, you sound like one of the Latins - but even there, the Latins have mellowed out and have enthusiastically accepted the Government as being just as Christian as before. (Not to mention Papal support and support from the HRE, too.) If not Palestinian, may I remind you that it has been a long-standing policy dating from the Latin Kingdom that only Palestinians can get government jobs - foreigners have to be naturalized as Palestinian citizens first. If you are from Palestine, from which canton are you from?

Number two, I don't think Palestine will be Christian only in name for a long time to come - given how long the Latin Kingdom ruled over Palestine, I'd say that, even if one doesn't want to admit it, I'd say that Palestine in general is culturally Christian. Granted, it has absorbed many Oriental elements (which is natural for any state of Crusader origin which is located in the Levant), and the indigenous Christian and non-Christian communities have contributed a lot to Palestinian culture, but even with that, due to what the Crusaders set up, Catholicism still has had a huge impact on Palestinian culture and has influenced how modern Palestine has become.

[OOC: If the Kingdom of Jerusalem and the Pope's temporal power have survived this long, there really should be some of this perspective...]

OOC: I know that - I chose to be the Palestinian way back when it started to try and inject some realism into the whole thing - and how it has changed for the better over time. In hindsight, I think it worked - particularly since I now have a useful treasure-trove of info I can mine for a TL I'm working on. :D Had you been here in the beginning doing that as a Latin, you would've been very welcome to do so (and the debates would've been very interesting between you and me, for sure).

IC:

IC: As a loyal subject of United Sylvania, I would like to remind you that the Kingdom of Jerusalem has been the bulwark of all Christendom beyond the Mediterranean. Certainly, some kings have shrugged off the duties of their office -

I wouldn't say "some", mind you - a lot of them did. Those that were mindful of their duties were exceptions to the rule, I'm afraid. This king has been very mindful of his duties, and it has paid off very well. Oh, and I wouldn't say that the Latin Kingdom had "been the bulwark of all Christendom beyond the Mediterranean".
 
And what's so wrong with administering some government services through the Church? Shouldn't it be caring for the poor and needy anyway? And if the king is so kind as to set up a different system of services for people not members of the Church, why should we criticize him for his charity?

OK, this is one of those things that needs a massive amount of explanation, since it is one of those things that baffles non-Palestinians because they think it's ridiculous, but it's one that Palestinians have to navigate.

Theoretically, because the Latin Kingdom was a theocracy, the Church was supposed to administer some government services because, as you said yourself, it is supposed to be caring for the poor and needy. And outside of Palestine, that might work okay.

But in Palestine, apart from the Catholic schools, the Pontifical Universities, and the hospitals (most of which were either patronized or used by the élite), the Church basically operated nothing in the way of social services. Now, I'm not criticizing the Church by any means on this - I myself have been a product of a Catholic education all the way to the Pontifical University (most of it being whilst on scholarship, because I'm not a member of the élite by all means, but got in due to my very exceptional academic abilities), which I'm very grateful for - but due to the segregation of the Church that I mentioned a while back, and because many of the patrons of the Church tended to be from the élite, the Church tended to reflect the views of the élite, which meant that in order to protect the status of the élite, the Church tended not to run any social welfare provision of any kind; those that it did offer were largely catered for the élite.

Hence, the Kingdom had to step in and operate those social services that the Church was supposed to be doing, but didn't. But even then, the social services offered by the Kingdom were also minimal, so the private sector also had to step in - and the private sector didn't always have good intentions at heart, partly because they operated in the black market (so as to avoid the crippling amount of red tape). Granted, the last couple of kings did the best they could to increase the amount of social services offered by the Kingdom, but this was heavily criticized by the élite. So, a good portion of the social safety net is built upon the foundations laid by the Kingdom (and also embracing some of the private sector), partly out of the charity of the King but also out of necessity.

It's stuff like that that makes me question the whole "bulkwark of Christendom in the Middle East" thing - and if you were an average pilgrim in the Latin Kingdom in those times, you too would have been shocked by how we lived our lives. On one hand, we were supposed to be the light amongst the nations, which was how outsiders viewed the Latin Kingdom. The reality, however, was very different, because we consciously knew that we fell behind the rest of Europe on many things. Because the Latin Kingdom never really made to the radar of Europeans (we were essentially a minor kingdom), there was never an air of concern about these things unless one was in the private sector, and really the only times when we made the headlines were the whole "Republic of Jerusalem" brouhaha and the assassination of the King way back when. Even my country was also derisively called the "sick man of Europe" by outsiders who visited it because they too were shocked - that, plus the very complicated bureaucracy and the high amount of corruption as well as enforcing things by decree that shouldn't need to have been enforced, would have been enough to deter anyone from immigrating here. Not anymore.

I was recently asked to write a book on the so-called "Palestinian Revolution" and its implication for the wider world. Whilst I wouldn't mind writing it, I feel that calling it a Revolution is actually a bit of a misnomer, as things had been evolving in this direction for a long time. Those Kings who anticipated and embraced it did a lot to help this country despite élite opposition (unfortunately, they were a minority); those Kings who tried to suppress it and revert us to the Middle Ages, like the last couple of them, actually did more harm than good. So, I'd say it was a major evolution of things (though I do believe that it was probably done a bit too quickly), and not a Revolution by any stretch of the word, unlike what non-religious outsiders tend to believe.

I only hope that King Richard can keep up these proud traditions of his kingdom.

Oh, he has. Trust me on this.

I'm sorry to say this, but I'll have to side with darthbalmung here: Baldwin, Anthony and Robert had it coming; tyrants and wanna-be tyrants, the lot of them.

And also, don't be so quick to talk about how forward Royal Palestine is........unfortunately, it's largely not as democratic, or as socially advanced, as their P.R. people would want us to think........in fact, not nearly so.

Trust me on this - we are as democratic or socially advanced as the outside world now, and that is a major step forward. I've seen the changes happen within my own lifetime, even with our new system of constitutional monarchy. We're still somewhat adjusting to the system, but believe me - it's light years ahead of what we had before.

In any case, I'm certainly thankful that our representatives in Mistissini had the good sense to cut off relations with that poor excuse of a gov't back in the days just after the Baghdad Crisis ended in Oct. of '59, when my mother was still young{bless her heart}.

And those that did we remember very well.

We Manitobans are a people of democracy and goodwill, and it saddens me to think that our neighbors are still allied to this backwards little desert shithole run by oppressive tyrants who think only of lining their pockets and keeping their power base going, instead of actually helping their people{not to mention the system of segregation they had didn't end until too terribly long ago.........1968, I believe?}

Until the assassination of King Baldwin, in fact. Yes, it's been that long. But don't think that Palestine is still a "backwards little desert shithole run by oppressive tyrants" - that stereotype has largely been shattered now. Palestine now is very different from the Latin Kingdom that existed before. After all, we are an "Abode of Peace" [:cool:].

Perhaps Richard III can change things to a degree, but given how powerful the corrupt elements of the Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Churches are in that nation, I sincerely doubt it.

Oh, both those churches have gone along very well with these changes and have also started to reform themselves, though the Catholic Church a bit less so (the Church here has always been several decades behind the rest of Christendom). Change is here to stay.

BTW - has anyone heard about the birth of the Royal Family's new twins? A daughter and a son, I believe they are. I think that it'll be interesting to see if they end up being as good as their father.
 
what hopes has King Richard III dashed? On the contrary, I think he's fulfilled many of the hopes and aspirations of the Palestinians.
Well, mine and my friends'. :) Yes, he's given the Palestinians full votes in a constitutionally protected legislature in proportion to their population. Yes, he lets them discuss whatever laws they want, and he frequently enacts them - I don't think he's vetoed a single bill so far! Yes, he's invited infidel clerics to pray at government functions. That is exactly what I don't like. Jerusalem was established as a Christian kingdom; it should stay that way.

See, that's the funny thing - most of what people outside Palestine called "heretics and infidels" back in the days of the Latin Kingdom were not really heretics and infidels at all, but were mainly political prisoners [often for no reason or fault of their own] or common criminals.
It looks like you've misunderstood me - which is no problem; hardly any king's ever actually burnt every heretic and infidel. And when you start off with such arbitrary enforcement of the law, it'd be a miracle if there wasn't bias and corruption - especially with as corrupt and antique a system as Jerusalem had. Why, they were going off traditions dating back to the 1400's, at least, with centuries of corrupt precedent! You mentioned Jerusalem's recent economic miracle - I think that started in 1959-60, right after the "Republic" rebellion, when King Manfred totally rewrote their criminal law to bring it in line with modern conditions.

And why are you studying at a seminary to get a government job when there's now the National School of Public Administration?
Oh - I'm sorry; I'm in United Sylvania, all the way on the other side of the ocean. We don't have any schools of public administration yet, and I think the seminaries are doing a wonderful job. I've looked at Jerusalem naturalization law, and it wouldn't be too hard if I get ordained first and am willing to wait... well, I'll have to see.
 
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Well, mine and my friends'. :) Yes, he's given the Palestinians full votes in a constitutionally protected legislature in proportion to their population. Yes, he lets them discuss whatever laws they want, and he frequently enacts them - I don't think he's vetoed a single bill so far!

He has, in fact, vetoed a few bills.

That is exactly what I don't like. Jerusalem was established as a Christian kingdom; it should stay that way.

The old Latin Kingdom, maybe, but this is the United Imperial Commonwealth of Palestine, Abode of Peace - which covers not just the old Latin Kingdom, but also Cyprus and the two Counties of Tripoli and Edessa (of which Cyprus and Tripoli had long been integrated into the Latin Kingdom, and of which Edessa joined very willingly after the transition to Richard III).

Palestine is also a very old name for the region that goes back centuries - all the way back to the ancient Greeks and Romans. We've got Christians of almost every creed - Latins, Greeks, Maronites, Melkites, Syrians, Armenians, and a few others I may have left out without me knowing - of which some of them date back to the time of Jesus. We also have non-Christian communities, yes, but they've been here for as long as Palestine has been around, and then some. We Palestinians may speak different languages and practice different creeds or religions, but the ultimate core of being Palestinian is that we've had a very unique history and cultural experience quite different from the rest of the Middle East. And that is what all Palestinians are proud of.

The interesting thing about the Latin Kingdom is that, by any stretch of the word, the modern Kingdom was pretty much not really Christian in terms of its actions - I'm sure the security state and a lot of the problems then, including the corruption and the very overt class distinctions, were in direct contradiction to both what Jesus taught and what the Holy See teaches. It may have been established as a Christian kingdom in the beginning, but my experience within the Latin Kingdom, both as a journalist and as an ordinary Palestinian, has shown me otherwise.

It looks like you've misunderstood me - which is no problem; hardly any king's ever actually burnt every heretic and infidel. And when you start off with such arbitrary enforcement of the law, it'd be a miracle if there wasn't bias and corruption - especially with as corrupt and antique a system as Jerusalem had. Why, they were going off traditions dating back to the 1400's, at least, with centuries of corrupt precedent!

Oh, absolutely. And I wasn't misunderstanding you.

You mentioned Jerusalem's recent economic miracle - I think that started in 1959-60, right after the "Republic" rebellion, when King Manfred totally rewrote their criminal law to bring it in line with modern conditions.

Nah, Manfred had nothing to do with it at all - he was one of those who tried to suppress the whole thing. No wonder why he abdicated in favour of Baldwin, his brother. :rolleyes:

Oh - I'm sorry; I'm in United Sylvania, all the way on the other side of the ocean. We don't have any schools of public administration yet, and I think the seminaries are doing a wonderful job.

That's interesting - around here, the big thing in Palestine right now is that there is a massive overhaul of the educational system going on so as to make it more competitive. Among the early experiments was the National School of Public Administration and the Jerusalem, Tripoli, Bethlehem, Haifa, and Jaffa campii of the National Autonomous University of Palestine, but I know that amongst other things, Palestine will be getting a national system of public autonomous universities (into which the National School of Public Administration and the National Autonomous University will be gradually integrated with) that will be open to all, alongside the existing system of Pontifical Universities (which are one of the models used as a guide for the reform). Primary and secondary education are also undergoing massive reforms and changes, too - which is needed, given the bad reputation of the state schools in everything but post-secondary. Seminaries are largely if you're going into the priesthood or want to be a theologian - for anything else, if you want to remain being in the Catholic system, there's the Pontifical Universities.

I've looked at Jerusalem naturalization law, and it wouldn't be too hard if I get ordained first and am willing to wait... well, I'll have to see.

Or you don't even have to be ordained - we already have tons of priests and the like as is. (Though I do know that Radiophonia Hierusalem Generalis is desperately looking for people willing to work at the station.) What the Palestinian immigration authorities will be looking for, vis-à-vis skilled workers, are professional qualifications and a successful job offer. Therefore, your employer will have to sponsor you. Fortunately, the wait is not long and is relatively painless, unlike during the Latin Kingdom when it was impossible to get a job offer unless if it was in the black market.
 
OOC: Please, the United States of America has been slaughtered by a stampede of butterflies! And needless to remind you, in-character remarks do not necessarily represent my actual views...

IC: As a loyal subject of United Sylvania, I would like to remind you that the Kingdom of Jerusalem has been the bulwark of all Christendom beyond the Mediterranean. Certainly, some kings have shrugged off the duties of their office - but wasn't that the same thing that happened with your First Consul in the 1980's or so? Darmond Owens, wasn't he?

And what's so wrong with administering some government services through the Church? Shouldn't it be caring for the poor and needy anyway? And if the king is so kind as to set up a different system of services for people not members of the Church, why should we criticize him for his charity? I only hope that King Richard can keep up these proud traditions of his kingdom.

OOC: Okay, that's fine....... how about Cabotian Federation instead of the now butterflied U.S.? Sounds cool, right? :D
 
OOC: I intended for the Federation of North American Republics to be the anologue-USA

OOC: Okay, that's alright. I'll have to edit that post again though. :p

@Evan: Sylvania, huh? That little island nation west of the Cascadian Republic{OOC: I'm referring to Vancouver Island here}? It's a decent place, but a bit boring. Which part of the island are you on?

Anyway, it appears that the United Pacifican States[1] has had to deal with yet another wave of terror attacks from the Holy Knights of Woden[2]; I just received an e-mail from a friend of mine in Los Angeles who witnessed a train bombing in Alameda Blvd. at 9 am this morning. And people here in Manitoba are getting a little worried here; people from Prairie City, Caro. to Fairstone[3], near the border with Quebec, are beginning to lock their doors a little more often[4]

OOC: Here's some notes-

[1]Fictional country I created for this thread. Composed of OTL's Calif., Baja Calif., Sonora, Chihuahua, Utah, Oregon, and Idaho.......as well as any part of New Mexico west of the Rio Grande. The capital is Yerba Buena, just south of S.F.
[2]Aryan Nations/'The Order' analogue.........only with much more funding.
[3]OTL Sudbury, Ont.
[4]The nation of Manitoba as I envisioned it stretches from central Ont. all the way back to OTL's Alberta, and north into the Arctic areas..........guess which classic ATL I was inspired by and you get bonus points. :D
 
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