DBWI: america fights in the great war.

would the united states of america getting involved in the great war (american troops fighting in europe) majorly effect the outcome, would it have acutally ended in won side winning (instead of it becoming draw, cause both sides were just too war weary) I would think america would fight with england cause of our strong trade. and would a clear victory for ethier side ( but most likely the allies) have affected what happened to the remains of austria hungary?
 

yourworstnightmare

Banned
Donor
Maybe Austria- Hungary could have been preserved if they had lost some of that territory that became the source for the great slavic revolution in 1924. Maybe France would remain a stable democracy instead of a shaky dictatorship with huge problems with the powerful socialist underground movement. Maybe Germany would have become a communist state instead of a Constitutional monarchy with slow democratic reforms. And maybe Russia could have been saved from the disastrous hands of Lenin and Trotskyi, not to speak about Ukraine from the hands of the mad man Makhno. And maybe the radical nationalists would not have gained power in Italy, and Benito Mussolini's socialsit campaign had been succesful. Perhaps no italian civil war between nationalists and monarchists.
 
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67th Tigers

Banned
The idea that it was a draw seem to mainly be German, who seem to think it was some great conspiracy against them. After the British unleashed their thousands of tanks and planes in the 1919 offensive it was all over*.

However, the terms Germany got were IMHO very generous, they lost Alsace-Lorraine and the Rhineland to France, and were forced to give East Prussia to the new Polish state, but Germany was still intact, and was ruled by the Kaiser (although, of course, Bavaria had a short lived existance as an independent state).

I'd be afraid that if the Americans got involved they might have insisted on something stupid, like making Germany a Republic, and that it might create a power vacuum allowing for a Communist revolution.



* OTL The 1919 offensive was planned to be the first "Blitzkrieg".
 
Perhaps Finland would have gained its independence, and the Swedish Civil War wouldn't have broken out. At any rate, the Social Democrats could hardly have won without the Soviet support, and Sweden wouldn't be ruled by them till the collapse of Communism/Socialism.

Perhaps Britain would have been able to preserve their Empire. India was a lost cause, of course, but things wouldn't have had to take such a bad turn in Africa. Mugabe likely wouldn't have ruled the Rhodesian Federation and waged that atrocious war with the Union of South Africa.

Most of all, the genocide on the Jews by the Third French Empire definitely wouldn't have happened. No ideology like Socialist Nationalism would ever have been able to grab hold over a stronger Western Europe.
 
The idea that it was a draw seem to mainly be German, who seem to think it was some great conspiracy against them. After the British unleashed their thousands of tanks and planes in the 1919 offensive it was all over*.

However, the terms Germany got were IMHO very generous, they lost Alsace-Lorraine and the Rhineland to France, and were forced to give East Prussia to the new Polish state, but Germany was still intact, and was ruled by the Kaiser (although, of course, Bavaria had a short lived existance as an independent state).

I'd be afraid that if the Americans got involved they might have insisted on something stupid, like making Germany a Republic, and that it might create a power vacuum allowing for a Communist revolution.



* OTL The 1919 offensive was planned to be the first "Blitzkrieg".
well they only really lost east prussia, the got the rhineland and alsace lorriane back in the french civil war, cause everybody liked germany better than the new goverment in france
 
* OTL The 1919 offensive was planned to be the first "Blitzkrieg".
:rolleyes:The Anglo insistence of calling moving at about the pace of a fast walk "Lightning War" has always bee vastly amusing to the rest of us in the world who saw the true meaning of Blitzkrieg when the German-trained Chinese Army smashed the British expeditionary force that was sent to "secure and protect British interests" in East Asia's mainland three decades later.
 
:rolleyes:The Anglo insistence of calling moving at about the pace of a fast walk "Lightning War" has always bee vastly amusing to the rest of us in the world who saw the true meaning of Blitzkrieg when the German-trained Chinese Army smashed the British expeditionary force that was sent to "secure and protect British interests" in East Asia's mainland three decades later.
well it didn't help that england used outdated everything, and germany had supplied china with JET fighters
 
well it didn't help that england used outdated everything, and germany had supplied china with JET fighters
And why did England use outdated equipment? Because the same breed of officers that sent men charging into machinegun fire in WW1 until the Germans ran out of bullets refused to believe that Eastern types could play war with the big boys. Because the college-educated officers just knew that those tiny orientals, especially the Chinese, wouldn't be able to stand up against a real European fighting man.

(What, me? Bitter? :rolleyes:)
 
Perhaps Finland would have gained its independence, and the Swedish Civil War wouldn't have broken out. At any rate, the Social Democrats could hardly have won without the Soviet support, and Sweden wouldn't be ruled by them till the collapse of Communism/Socialism.

OOC: Just to point out that in early 1917 BEFORE the US came into the war Sweden had massriots because of lack of food etc. We got through it with a promisse that every male would be allowed to vote and then the Socialdemocrats became the biggest party
 
And why did England use outdated equipment? Because the same breed of officers that sent men charging into machinegun fire in WW1 until the Germans ran out of bullets refused to believe that Eastern types could play war with the big boys. Because the college-educated officers just knew that those tiny orientals, especially the Chinese, wouldn't be able to stand up against a real European fighting man.

(What, me? Bitter? :rolleyes:)

Partly true but far more because the bulk of the modern forces were involved in the North American war, driving back the dictatorship. Once the British Imperial Federation had crushed that threat, especially after the final liberation of Pittsburgh and Norfolk broke its back, they were able to respond to the Chinese aggression. Along with the Japanese allies they then crushed the attempts to expand into Manchuria and Indo-China and force the overthrow of the Chinese expansionist government.

In terms of tactics it was the Americans that, lacking experience of WWI, made the pointless frontal assaults, which bled them so white in their failed attacks on Canada. It was the BIF forces that with tactics and equipment 1st held their hordes then tore them apart with mechanised counter-attacks. Ultimately restoring democracy and human rights to the [admittedly somewhat smaller] US.

Although admittedly the single biggest mistake the American leadership made was the insanity to introducing gas warfare and breaking the establish taboo on the use of such weapons. This not only brought the French into the alliance after the attack on Montreal and prevented any alliance with the appalled Germans but left the US open to the far more devastating allied counter attacks.

Steve
 
Partly true but far more because the bulk of the modern forces were involved in the North American war, driving back the dictatorship. Once the British Imperial Federation had crushed that threat, especially after the final liberation of Pittsburgh and Norfolk broke its back, they were able to respond to the Chinese aggression. Along with the Japanese allies they then crushed the attempts to expand into Manchuria and Indo-China and force the overthrow of the Chinese expansionist government.

In terms of tactics it was the Americans that, lacking experience of WWI, made the pointless frontal assaults, which bled them so white in their failed attacks on Canada. It was the BIF forces that with tactics and equipment 1st held their hordes then tore them apart with mechanised counter-attacks. Ultimately restoring democracy and human rights to the [admittedly somewhat smaller] US.

Although admittedly the single biggest mistake the American leadership made was the insanity to introducing gas warfare and breaking the establish taboo on the use of such weapons. This not only brought the French into the alliance after the attack on Montreal and prevented any alliance with the appalled Germans but left the US open to the far more devastating allied counter attacks.

Steve
strange I don't recall america ever not beiing a republic untill the end of the north american war ( when another country can over rule a election, it is not a republic) and I seem to recall that england was the first one to use gas warfare in the battle of D.C (we didn't even have gas weapons for a good part of the war) and germany did send weapons, they didn't fight cause the were too tried of war. well I suppose the winners are the ones who write history.
 

67th Tigers

Banned
:rolleyes:The Anglo insistence of calling moving at about the pace of a fast walk "Lightning War" has always bee vastly amusing to the rest of us in the world who saw the true meaning of Blitzkrieg when the German-trained Chinese Army smashed the British expeditionary force that was sent to "secure and protect British interests" in East Asia's mainland three decades later.

OT/OOC

Blitzkrieg was a retcon after the fact. The German advance into France in 1940 was envisioned as a rerun of 1914-18. The German Army could advance into France, seeking good ground for attritional warfare.

What nobody foresaw was the incompetance of the French in frittering away their reserve (of 30 Divisions!) on every little minor pressure point on the line. Guderians [SIZE=-1]Sichelschnitt was supposed to be a local advance, but with no one in his way he kept going. Had there been a spare division of two to deal with him it wouldn't have been a drama and we'd be talking about Guderians stupidity for advancing into a witches cauldron.[/SIZE]
 
strange I don't recall america ever not beiing a republic untill the end of the north american war ( when another country can over rule a election, it is not a republic) and I seem to recall that england was the first one to use gas warfare in the battle of D.C (we didn't even have gas weapons for a good part of the war) and germany did send weapons, they didn't fight cause the were too tried of war. well I suppose the winners are the ones who write history.

Creeper

True Ford was elected in 1924 fairly honestly but after his assassination and the take over by the extremists there was little but a reign of terror. You just have to see how many people fled the country in the years before the war. Let alone those expelled. Even with the continued economic depression its significant that the US saw its population drop during the decade before the conflict.

On the idea that the allies used gas 1st that's total garbage by the apologists for the defeated American 'Nationalist' regime. Britain respected the no-gas use until the Montreal attack despite the US not being a member of the Geneva Treaty. There are still people alive from the conflict along with plenty of records of incidents and memories after the conflict.

As it was Canada got off fairly lightly. While the occupation of the prairies was, like most of the ANP operations, brutal and thuggish, it did preserve them from the gas attacks. Most of the rest of the country was too thinly populated to be targeted and once the allies realised the threat they managed to provide some CAP over the other Canadian cities and keep them out of artillery range. The people who really suffered were the Latinos’ to the south. MacArthur's slaughter of the Cuban rebellion didn't even stop when the resistance had effectively ended and nearly 2/3 of the island's population ended up dead. No wonder that bastard hung after the war. While what the US 7th and 12th Army Groups did during their advance to Mexico city and the battle for the city. Utterly revolting.

Mind you, as the old saying goes, those who sow the storm. The US suffered about 35 million dead in the conflict and while that included several millions from internal massacres and the front line conflict the majority came from the Sterling and Doncaster bomber attacks. That was what really brought the empire down as it enabled the allies to cripple the still substantial US industrial base. If they hadn't developed nerve agents when the US started equipping its population with gas protection, or the US RDF network had been developed earlier it could have been an even longer and more costly war.

Anyway, back to the initial question. If the US had got involved in WWI then who knows. They might have gained some valuable experience that could have cost the allies dear in the early battle. It was only the quality edge of the Canadian and British veterans that enabled the eastern and western bastions to hold once the US extended the war against Canada in 1930. That could have been really grim for the world. Britain and Germany might have resolved their differences, which were fairly trivial, but if the dictatorship had conquered all of Canada and possibly Newfoundland and Bermuda as well, then it would have been virtually impossible to keep their pirates at bay, even with the edge the alliance gained in the early naval battles.

Steve
 
Creeper
On the idea that the allies used gas 1st that's total garbage by the apologists for the defeated American 'Nationalist' regime. Britain respected the no-gas use until the Montreal attack despite the US not being a member of the Geneva Treaty. There are still people alive from the conflict along with plenty of records of incidents and memories after the conflict.
Steve
well any american vet will tell you that the allies used gas first, we did not even have gas until after montreal, but of course the "offical" records don't mention that.
 
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