DBWI: Alternative Cold War: How long could the Soviets have stood up?

A serious question as to the whole cliche as of "what if the Cold War was between the US and Britain and the Soviet Union, rather than US and Britain and Germany?"

But something I rarely see is any sort of attempt to accurately guess as to how long a victorious Soviet Union could stand. The "Thousand Year Reich" was only on the cutting edge for a few decades before it's older scientists were replaced by military-trained youths of Hitler's education system, and even before then the economy was heading into the crash of the 70's.

But what about the Soviets? There's the Siberian Resource Region of lots of gold and oil, a victorious Soviet Union would conceivably be able to loot more of Europe than Germany could (if only because Germany wouldn't loot itself), and so would have its own resource-exports. With rich raw materials, could it have survived longer?
 
A serious question as to the whole cliche as of "what if the Cold War was between the US and Britain and the Soviet Union, rather than US and Britain and Germany?"

But something I rarely see is any sort of attempt to accurately guess as to how long a victorious Soviet Union could stand. The "Thousand Year Reich" was only on the cutting edge for a few decades before it's older scientists were replaced by military-trained youths of Hitler's education system, and even before then the economy was heading into the crash of the 70's.

But what about the Soviets? There's the Siberian Resource Region of lots of gold and oil, a victorious Soviet Union would conceivably be able to loot more of Europe than Germany could (if only because Germany wouldn't loot itself), and so would have its own resource-exports. With rich raw materials, could it have survived longer?

It'll be a race between the fundamental unworkability of the communist economic system and the price of oil. Can they survive from the collapse in the proce of oil in the eighties to the increase in price we've seen recently?
 
The oil doesn't matter. The Middle East would be in the firm hands of the allies even if France falls into Soviet hands. The Brittish would just pick up their claims.
 
The Middle East would be in the firm hands of the allies even if France falls into Soviet hands. The British would just pick up their claims.
I think the oil crisis would have erupted no matter whiter Germany or Russia won GW2.

The Oil Crisis was brought on by the Euro/Americans moving in and Having the young Sons and Daughters, of the mid East leaders attend Western Universities.
There they learned Western Law, Business, and Oil technology, after three generations of this they of course took over .

Look how the American Indians have turned their control of the Uranium Fields into control of the entire Nuclear Power Grid.
 
I fail to see the Soviets lasting from 1944 to 1997, the way the Greater Germanic Empire and its League of Aryan Nations did.

The Germans were quite efficient at repressing European desires for freedom, until the infrastructural rot caused the Great Collapse of the 1990s and the resulting breakup of the Reichsgaue. The Gauleiters were brutal, terrible men, especially the ones in charge of Bohemia and the General Government. I fail to see how any USSR victorious could have produced men of that caliber of ruthlessness. What did the Soviets have to compare to the Gauleiters?

Admittedly, by the time of Baldur Von Schirach and his Fuhrerate, corruption that was endemic to Nazism had already wormed its way into it to the point that no reformer Fuhrer would have been able to unpack it. Soviet communism, OTOH, was a more scientific ideology than National Socialism, it might well have found a charismatic leader around the time of the Oil Crash, one that might prevent the Von Schirach Stagnation.

The Germans could not force their way into the Middle East for various reasons in OTL, so how would Moscow have done it? Furthermore, Moscow's Communism itself would have been a handicap in a European War won by the Brits and the Soviets.

Then, where does Japan fit into this? It was an ally of Germany, but since Hitler didn't declare war on us, and we saw Russia collapse without Lend-Lease due to some hanky-pank or other, but we still kicked the shit out of Japan by 1944, at which point Hitler's goons had already finished the conquest of Europe and Britain, in the process of an economic meltdown had to sue for peace. What could the USSR have done to change its economic unworkability that led to the Soviet collapse and pacification by the Nazis? (Granted, a lot of the older generation considers that to have been good for capitalism, ignoring Hitler's and his sucessors' increasing economic leftism as the Reich got deeper and deeper down the rabbit hole of debt)...

The US hanged many of Japan's wartime leaders in the Tokyo Trials. All the Nazis did in retaliation was to hold a Warsaw Trial where many of their enemies were hanged. Would a victorious USSR have allowed a Hamburg Trial, or would it have simply gone straight to the noose?

It all depends on the scenario. How exactly does Stalin's house of cards win here?
 
I Think we are forgetting the amazing strength and dynamism that communism continues to show despite the defeat of the Soviets. I mean the bombings all over the States in the 60's, the short lived Cuban revolution and Che Guevarra's long march, and of course The Peoples Republic of China. Even today in post-Nazi Europe hardline communist parties are becoming popular.

Communism has a strong ideological advantage over Nazism in that it is an inclusive ideology rather than and exclusive one. We've seen the damage done by isolated communists to the effort against the Germans, imagine the effect that Soviet tanks on the Rhine or even in Paris would have had on the thirds world colonies, decolonisation might have been moved back from the 80's to the early 60's. I can see the Soviets lasting even longer than the Germans, perhaps even outlasting us if China fell into their control
 
I Think we are forgetting the amazing strength and dynamism that communism continues to show despite the defeat of the Soviets. I mean the bombings all over the States in the 60's, the short lived Cuban revolution and Che Guevarra's long march, and of course The Peoples Republic of China. Even today in post-Nazi Europe hardline communist parties are becoming popular.

Communism has a strong ideological advantage over Nazism in that it is an inclusive ideology rather than and exclusive one. We've seen the damage done by isolated communists to the effort against the Germans, imagine the effect that Soviet tanks on the Rhine or even in Paris would have had on the thirds world colonies, decolonisation might have been moved back from the 80's to the early 60's.

Communism was not inclusive, not at all. The Fuhrerate of Himmler may have seen the forcible secularization of Europe, it's why in parts of Europe where the Reich ruled, there's over half the population nontheistic or neopagan or whatever, as Himmler's administration was bad for Christianity, though albeit not as bad as it was for Jews, but to look at Communism, I don't see how the Soviets would have been much more tolerable.

And you're forgetting that in places like Canada and the US and even Britain, the Nazis had their own international movement organizing and carrying out occasional terrorist acts. Ironically, though, in the Jim Crow South, you'd occasionally have Klansmen beat up the Brownshirts as they wanted to be the ones in charge, not those Nazis from across the ocean.

People condemn the actions of guys like Strom Thurmond, but it's worth noting that over the long time of desegregation, few segregationists would tolerate "foreign" Nazi adventurism in American racism. I know because my grandfather was a racist SOB, but he hated the Nazis as passionately as any Leftist.

Edit-Understand, the Klan never opposed Nazism out of anything benevolent, it was pure self-interest and desire to keep blacks down. The Nazis represented an unwelcome foreign intrusion and were drawing off some of the South's youth in the Jim Crow Era. The Klan decided some...reorganizings were in order. It's not something that I, as a Southerner, am all that proud of. It still happened...so....
 
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A Soviet Union is not really going to last that long. Come on, you really think that for all the Soviet union's worth. That they would be able to hold up like the Greater German Empire did ? Seriously I don't really see them being able to produce the materials and the industry to compete with the West.

The Soviet Union would have had to use stopgaps to catch up with the West. A lot of esstinal things would be missing and worse they will have a badly run system. I just find the whole thing a load of balls. This would never work unless of course you are a communist then yes... you can think of all the ideas that you want.

The West will win out.... then again the West has a Socialist Democracy/Technocrat ideals. I just don't know what to say.

OOC: My whole idea with the post was to have someone who has seen so much and believes that the West will always crack the enemy wthrough good old fashioned ideals. The problem in thiis timeline is that without the Soviet Union, communism is more of a ideal and a dream and therefore has a bigger following. i expect that more people have put more into it to get it to work and what we have is a Socialist/Captialist state that runs both ways and keeps going foward.
 
A Soviet Union is not really going to last that long. Come on, you really think that for all the Soviet union's worth. That they would be able to hold up like the Greater German Empire did ? Seriously I don't really see them being able to produce the materials and the industry to compete with the West.

The Soviet Union would have had to use stopgaps to catch up with the West. A lot of esstinal things would be missing and worse they will have a badly run system. I just find the whole thing a load of balls. This would never work unless of course you are a communist then yes... you can think of all the ideas that you want.

The West will win out.... then again the West has a Socialist Democracy/Technocrat ideals. I just don't know what to say.

OOC: My whole idea with the post was to have someone who has seen so much and believes that the West will always crack the enemy wthrough good old fashioned ideals. The problem in thiis timeline is that without the Soviet Union, communism is more of a ideal and a dream and therefore has a bigger following. i expect that more people have put more into it to get it to work and what we have is a Socialist/Captialist state that runs both ways and keeps going foward.


Any USSR victory will take at least a year or two longer than the German victory over the Soviets did. Germany won, furthermore, because the US got deeply involved in a war with Japan, and ended up getting engrossed in a really, really fucking stupid way to take it out. The result, as we all know, was that Britain lost Lend-Lease aid at a critical time and the Soviets never got any. A Soviet victory will require American Lend-Lease and may take until 45 or even 46 or 47. Who knows, maybe Lend-Lease would have led to a more amicable dispute between the Soviets and the US than the Nazis and the US.

After all, the Nazis were assholes, but the Soviets may have been slightly more...reasonable assholes.

Ah, who am I kidding? Stalin's successors might well have outdone Himmler, Von Schirach, Honecker and there would definitely have been no Soviet Schroeder to reform it. (;))
 
I fail to see the Soviets lasting from 1944 to 1997, the way the Greater Germanic Empire and its League of Aryan Nations did.
The organization may have officially lasted that long, but as I pointed out earlier the German "Superpower" was nothing like that by the 70's, when it became a bureaucratic corpse that was dying but wouldn't admit it. It could act, but it was increasingly clear that in economic, military, and political terms that Germany's final fall was a matter of when exactly, not if, and that made a lot of difference in the world political sphere.

But something I rarely see is any sort of attempt to accurately guess as to how long a victorious Soviet Union could stand. The "Thousand Year Reich" was only on the cutting edge for a few decades before it's older scientists were replaced by military-trained youths of Hitler's education system, and even before then the economy was heading into the crash of the 70's.

Then, where does Japan fit into this? It was an ally of Germany, but since Hitler didn't declare war on us, and we saw Russia collapse without Lend-Lease due to some hanky-pank or other, but we still kicked the shit out of Japan by 1944, at which point Hitler's goons had already finished the conquest of Europe and Britain, in the process of an economic meltdown had to sue for peace.
It always amuses me of the old German line of the "conquest of Britain." The Channel Islands are not Britain, nor does it change the fact that until the fall of the Empire with the India War and the rebellions in Africa and Asia, that it was very much a three-way Cld War.
A serious question as to the whole cliche as of "what if the Cold War was between the US and Britain and the Soviet Union, rather than US and Britain and Germany?"

The US hanged many of Japan's wartime leaders in the Tokyo Trials. All the Nazis did in retaliation was to hold a Warsaw Trial where many of their enemies were hanged. Would a victorious USSR have allowed a Hamburg Trial, or would it have simply gone straight to the noose?
I'm sure they could be bothered to go through the formalities of a mock-trial, just as they had mock-elections like the Nazis.

Tokyo still gets a nuke, though. The Soviet Siberian region was poorly undeveloped OTL, and nowhere near capable of making any sort of invasion fleet possible.
 
The organization may have officially lasted that long, but as I pointed out earlier the German "Superpower" was nothing like that by the 70's, when it became a bureaucratic corpse that was dying but wouldn't admit it. It could act, but it was increasingly clear that in economic, military, and political terms that Germany's final fall was a matter of when exactly, not if, and that made a lot of difference in the world political sphere.

Even so, the Reich held on until the late 1990s. And they actually retained that territory by force of arms, too, which was more than Roman Imperial government ever did for Europe, too. The fall of the Greater Germanic Reich was less destructive, IMHO, than a Soviet collapse would have been, or the 476 collapse. The successors of Hitler ended up just fading away without the mass barbarian attacks, and likely without the WWIII the Soviets would have given us.



It always amuses me of the old German line of the "conquest of Britain." The Channel Islands are not Britain, nor does it change the fact that until the fall of the Empire with the India War and the rebellions in Africa and Asia, that it was very much a three-way Cld War.

Britain was still in immense economic trouble from lack of Lend-Lease and from having to fight for years with little return against a Germany that just got wanked as much as we in the US did. I mean, Greater Germany might well be implausible in most TLs. But then, the sheer power of the US'd fall into that category too, I guess.

The Brits may think it was a three-way Cold War, but we and the Germans both knew who the real challengers were. And the British Isles were not one of them.

I'm sure they could be bothered to go through the formalities of a mock-trial, just as they had mock-elections like the Nazis.

Tokyo still gets a nuke, though. The Soviet Siberian region was poorly undeveloped OTL, and nowhere near capable of making any sort of invasion fleet possible.

Perhaps, but the potential of the Red Army with American Lend-Lease is an open question. Too many records were destroyed after the Nazis finally put out the last light of Russian resistance. We literally don't know what the USSR could or could not have done. The Nazis were as efficient in destroying a lot of its records as Cortez was of destroying Aztec records. Perhaps you could enlighten me as to whether Soviets had just one Great Trial or several, European history isn't up to snuff in our education, the League of Aryan Nations and the Neo-Roman Empire contain virtually all sites from there. Pity, isn't it, we white Americans can't even study the land of our birth because the Nazis kept us out of the archaeological field there. (;))
 
Igorant capitalists! The Soviet system's durability would easily have transcended both Capitalism and Hitlerite Fascism. Your systems are bound together around a few men - a President here, a Führer there - and Communism just has no equivalent. The historical dialectic proclaims that it is not "great men" - a preposterous concept if ever there was one - that guide the course of society, but rather the historical trends of materialism and class struggle. Likewise, the Communist system is greater than any one man, unlike your decadence. What was of the Reich when the driving force of the admittedly great reformer and war leader Hitler was gone? Stagnating into corruption and mysticism under Göring and Himmler, respectively. The later policies of Heydrich were merely yet more attempts to stave off the inevitable revolution of the Proletariat, just as your American president's antics and foreign wars are mere feeble distractions - ones that have backfired spectacularly at that - to divert the attention of your oppressed masses and present enemies to unite the people behind his corrupt rule.

Of course, such corruption would be impossible in a true Socialist system, as Comraders Lenin and Stalin showed in the grand old days before the highly temporary triumphs of fascism and darkness. Think of the Stakhanovites, who selflessly worked for the betterment of all! Man's nature is not a mere creature of flesh; our great spirit will be redeemed from oppression and thuggishness, bourgeois demand for profits and rents and the rape of the Proletariat's wives and daughters! If you could only fathom what can can do when released from the selfish capitalist mores; can't you see the shame in demanding profits for bettering the life of your fellow man? Man is of nature a humble and gratious being, who will help hose in need; this was so before the plague of nationalism swept the world, a veritable Tower of Babel. All these artificial barriers thrown in between us: race, gender, money! We need none of those! There is a better way! It is the doctrines of Fascism and Capitalism that sully our independence and awake base greed in every one of us.

If there is one thing we should be grateful to Hitler and Himmler for, it is that they exterminated religion in Europe. Oh, you can find plenty of hucksters still, just like in the US, who will capitalise on the name of this or that faith, but the fanatics and indoctrinated believers are long gone. A good thing, too, looking at your US; religious people are hypocrites at best. Freeedom is there, a new age for rational Man to throw off his shackles. No longer will the bourgeois oppression of women and sexual minorities continue, nor your racism. Such a silly notion that men would be unequal; the great Marx said that at the end of the world, every possession and every woman would be shared communally among everyone, and he was proven right about everything else, wasn't he? For you have seen the truth before your own two eyes: Fascism, the last resort of capitalism to keep the masses down, has failed, and yet Communism lives on!!! We are everywhere, and your time is up!!! Fascism failed, as will capitalism and all the other degenerate faiths and beliefs of dead prophets and lying capitalist hyenas!!! But Communism will live on forever!!! Be grateful that your stooge Hitler defeated mighty Stalin; it granted you a few more decades to suck the proletariat dry, eat our flesh and rape our women!!!
 
Igorant capitalists! The Soviet system's durability would easily have transcended both Capitalism and Hitlerite Fascism. Your systems are bound together around a few men - a President here, a Führer there - and Communism just has no equivalent. The historical dialectic proclaims that it is not "great men" - a preposterous concept if ever there was one - that guide the course of society, but rather the historical trends of materialism and class struggle. Likewise, the Communist system is greater than any one man, unlike your decadence. What was of the Reich when the driving force of the admittedly great reformer and war leader Hitler was gone? Stagnating into corruption and mysticism under Göring and Himmler, respectively. The later policies of Heydrich were merely yet more attempts to stave off the inevitable revolution of the Proletariat, just as your American president's antics and foreign wars are mere feeble distractions - ones that have backfired spectacularly at that - to divert the attention of your oppressed masses and present enemies to unite the people behind his corrupt rule.

Of course, such corruption would be impossible in a true Socialist system, as Comraders Lenin and Stalin showed in the grand old days before the highly temporary triumphs of fascism and darkness. Think of the Stakhanovites, who selflessly worked for the betterment of all! Man's nature is not a mere creature of flesh; our great spirit will be redeemed from oppression and thuggishness, bourgeois demand for profits and rents and the rape of the Proletariat's wives and daughters! If you could only fathom what can can do when released from the selfish capitalist mores; can't you see the shame in demanding profits for bettering the life of your fellow man? Man is of nature a humble and gratious being, who will help hose in need; this was so before the plague of nationalism swept the world, a veritable Tower of Babel. All these artificial barriers thrown in between us: race, gender, money! We need none of those! There is a better way! It is the doctrines of Fascism and Capitalism that sully our independence and awake base greed in every one of us.

If there is one thing we should be grateful to Hitler and Himmler for, it is that they exterminated religion in Europe. Oh, you can find plenty of hucksters still, just like in the US, who will capitalise on the name of this or that faith, but the fanatics and indoctrinated believers are long gone. A good thing, too, looking at your US; religious people are hypocrites at best. Freeedom is there, a new age for rational Man to throw off his shackles. No longer will the bourgeois oppression of women and sexual minorities continue, nor your racism. Such a silly notion that men would be unequal; the great Marx said that at the end of the world, every possession and every woman would be shared communally among everyone, and he was proven right about everything else, wasn't he? For you have seen the truth before your own two eyes: Fascism, the last resort of capitalism to keep the masses down, has failed, and yet Communism lives on!!! We are everywhere, and your time is up!!! Fascism failed, as will capitalism and all the other degenerate faiths and beliefs of dead prophets and lying capitalist hyenas!!! But Communism will live on forever!!! Be grateful that your stooge Hitler defeated mighty Stalin; it granted you a few more decades to suck the proletariat dry, eat our flesh and rape our women!!!

Heydrich was an SS stooge. The rest of the Reich pretty much had enough of the SS by the 70s, and so Heydrich died in the Putsch and was replaced by Von Schirach.

But then, to expect a Commie to actually focus on the Von Schirach and Schroeder Fuhrerates is not gonna happen, those Fuhrerates weren't quite Commies, but business freedom didn't exist under Von Schirach or Schroeder.

Besides, Himmler didn't quite destroy religion in the sense that you meant. He eliminated Orthodoxy outside of the former Ottoman Empire, sure, but Protestantism and Catholicism still exist, just simply powerless. Himmler forcibly secularized Europe, yes. He massacred thousands of clergy, again, yes.

But to state that Mr. Odinism was all for secularization and Marxist secularization, at that, is wrong. Under Himmler, Asatru was the state religion. Nowadays, neopagans seldom are encouraged, and in places formerly ruled by the Reich, a major religious revival is ongoing.

But Hell, WTF do I know, I'm just a comic-book nerd that happens to like the Teen Crusaders, and finds that half-human chick that was the freedom fighter from Mr. Demon-Schirach's world, (yes, folks, Trigon was based in facial figures on Von Schirach. Don't believe me, check out Spitzer's early run and compare it with photos of Von Schirach from the time the Stagnation was well into itself.), hot, so what do I know? :eek:

At least in the modern era, they haven't quite crapped on the Teen Crusaders yet the way they have everything else. I likes my Cold War camp just fine. And frankly, I find a Communist that admires Himmler for all that he did rather...bemusing. We simply don't know how much of the stories about Stalin are true, and how much the Nazis invented after burning the books of the Soviet Union. So, how Commies can find Himmler a figure to admire....
 
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