DBWI AHC: Make the majority of Europe democratic

I'm posting from the Pudong District of the City of Shanghai, Jiangsu Province, of the Qing (??) Empire. For sure the Imperial Firewall is preventing ordinary people from knowing about developments in Germany, but I'm using a VPN and I'm sure millions of other people have also known about those events. For sure Baidu's list of censored names now includes "Germany", "Kaiser", and "Austria Hungary", yet people still find ways to spread the message. In fact from what I've been hearing people have been following the recent mass anti-government demonstrations in the Duchy of Hong Kong with great interest.

If the Imperial Censorates think they can prevent the spread of information they're sadly mistaken.
 
I'm posting from the Pudong District of the City of Shanghai, Jiangsu Province, of the Qing (??) Empire. For sure the Imperial Firewall is preventing ordinary people from knowing about developments in Germany, but I'm using a VPN and I'm sure millions of other people have also known about those events. For sure Baidu's list of censored names now includes "Germany", "Kaiser", and "Austria Hungary", yet people still find ways to spread the message. In fact from what I've been hearing people have been following the recent mass anti-government demonstrations in the Duchy of Hong Kong with great interest.

If the Imperial Censorates think they can prevent the spread of information they're sadly mistaken.
I can't understand why China would remain that autocratic. After its defeat in the Sino-Japanese War in 1895, Emperor Guangxu pushed forward the Reforms of 1898. After that, China gradually becomes a modern and industrialized empire. Initially, such reforms were quite liberal. Yet, after the elections of 1909, Prime Minister Yuan Shikai grasped all powers onto his hands. After Yuan's death in 1920, the Constitutional Democratic Party won the 1921 elections. Under prime ministers Liang Qichao (1921-31) and then Cai E (1931-37), China was a democratic heartland. Nevertheless, the assassination of Cai E in 1937 changed everything. Emperor Shengping (1903-1989, r. 1934-1989), son of Emperor Guangxu and Imperial Noble Consort Ke-Shun, declared martial law in all China. It's insane that the martial law imposed after the death of Cai E could last until today. It's arguably the longest-ever martial law in the entire world. After that, Emperor Shengping appointed far-right nuts like Chiang Kai-shek as the new prime minister, who was merely his puppet and a killing machine. After Chiang Kai-shek himself was assassinated in 1959, Emperor Shengping did not even appoint a prime minister. In 1998, Emperor Hexie (1946-, r. 1997-) finally appointed a new prime minister, General Zhang Xusan, the guy who sponsored the Korean Republican Army to assassinate Prime Minister Nagasone in 1987. After Zhang retired in 2010, Emperor Hexie appointed another insane guy, General Zhu Chenghu as the new prime minister. Both Zhang and Zhu are just the puppets of Emperor Hexie - they talk about Confucianism, though they know nothing about Confucianism. They talk about a harmonious society, though they rule with white terror.

According to NHK, Prime Minister Zhu Chenghu just made his televised speech. He threatens air strikes against "subversive protesters against His Imperial Majesty in the Duchy of Hong Kong". Just hope you're alright.
 
OOC: I don't think any Chinese leader will openly threaten to attack protesters. It's just not the style. The most that could happen without ASBs would be a gradual transition of Hong Kong into a Singapore-like situation after 1997.

IC: Looks like too many NHK journalists just don't know how to verify what they hear about China. Over the past year they have falsely reported a Hmong separatist movement in Guizhou, that industrial wages have been going down when they have been surging, and that the majority of Chinese don't care about taking back Taiwan. And those are just what I can think of right now.

Back on topic, the Duchy of Macau has been crippled by a general strike by casino workers for two weeks now. They've been demanding a doubling of their wages and more freedom for real unions. And in recent days the strike has turned ugly as the office of the state-backed Macau Workers Union has been sacked. Even more amazingly police have acted rather softly to the rioters. The strikers haven't made any overtly political demands but everyone is familiar with the context.

EDIT: More and more it seems the European powers are losing their grasp over their colonies in Africa and Asia. And it's not just a repeat to the failed movements led by idealist nationalists like Gandhi, Ho Chi Minh, and Nasser. You may recall that earlier this year there was a completely leaderless uprising against French rule in Tunisia, which all started when a fruit vendor named Mohammed Bouazizi committed suicide after being humiliated by a corrupt French administrator in a small town of Sidi Bouzid. Every Friday it seems the streets of Tunisia and Algeria are flooded by nationalist protesters and it seems more and more of French North Africa is reaching out of France's hands. So far the violence has remained low level enough for France, but this can't sustain.
 
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It's not like he's proposing an overthrow of the modern government. He's creating a hypothetical academic discussion about historical events. The European monarchies, while they may be absolute, are still descendants of the Age of Enlightenment. They still welcome and promote academic research that can make their nations better, and to this end their censors are generally quite forgiving.

Okay, some are better than others, China probably would not let this through. Probably not Turkey either. And it might be a little different if he were to actually publish a timeline like this as a book.

Believe me, if their censors and secret service agencies had seen any hint that he was promoting treason, they wouldn't have gotten past the first internet gateway into your country, and you would never have even seen this message.


More to the point not even Turkey or China are going to try and kidnap a US citizen on US soil to haul back for trial about something like this. The diplomatic cost would far,far,far exceed any possible benefit.
 
One big thing would be the US ever becoming interested in anything outside its Sphere of Influence after Theodore Roosevelt. Wilson was kinda internationalist but he wasn't in power long before dieing of that stroke. I mean the Democrats are always "Focus on the US first above all" while the Reps are torn between the isolationist Taft wing and the interventionist Roosevelt wing that always comes to power under a Democratic or Taft wing Congress.

As an aside its amazing how much the Presidency looks like an elected monarchy anymore. I mean with 4 Republican Roosevelts (Theodore, Quentin, Franklin Jr.*, and most recently Kermit*, 3 Democratic Kennedy's (Joseph, Robert and now JFK Jr.), we've been under the rule of two families for more than 50 years! :eek:

If the US tried I think it could become a diplomatic superpower and not merely an economic superpower and considering that the US's GDP is about twice that of Japan's* its diplomatic influence would be similarly outsized. Given the fact that the US has been theoretically against European style Colonialism post Spanish-American war if it actually pit itself against Colonial powers things would be happening.

OOC: Franklin Jr. and Kermit are hypothetical kids of course. The Dems and Reps are much more of a mishmash of political viewpoints with the Dems being more fiscally liberal/progressive but retaining the South and its social conservatism while the Reps are socially liberal and more split between Taft's laissez-faire fiscal policies and the Roosevelt progressivism.

World GDP is a decent amount higher without two world wars and a much less crippling Great Depression (1930's were difficult but not disastrous). Here's what I would think would be a good shakedown

World - 85-90 Trillion (vs 62 Trillion)
USA - 18 Trillion
Japan - 9.5 Trillion (of course including Korea and Taiwan boosts its numbers quite a bit)
Russia - 8 Trillion (Includes a lot of area that would be Manchuria / Northern China.)
Germany / Britain - Around 6 Trillion Each
China - 5 Trillion (much smaller population than OTL without Mao, around 700 million people)
France / Brazil / Austria Hungary - 4 Trillion
Italy / Spain / Canada / Mexico / S. Africa / Australia / Netherlands / Ottoman Empire - 1-3 Trillion
 
One big thing would be the US ever becoming interested in anything outside its Sphere of Influence after Theodore Roosevelt. Wilson was kinda internationalist but he wasn't in power long before dieing of that stroke. I mean the Democrats are always "Focus on the US first above all" while the Reps are torn between the isolationist Taft wing and the interventionist Roosevelt wing that always comes to power under a Democratic or Taft wing Congress.

As an aside its amazing how much the Presidency looks like an elected monarchy anymore. I mean with 4 Republican Roosevelts (Theodore, Quentin, Franklin Jr.*, and most recently Kermit*, 3 Democratic Kennedy's (Joseph, Robert and now JFK Jr.), we've been under the rule of two families for more than 50 years! :eek:

If the US tried I think it could become a diplomatic superpower and not merely an economic superpower and considering that the US's GDP is about twice that of Japan's* its diplomatic influence would be similarly outsized. Given the fact that the US has been theoretically against European style Colonialism post Spanish-American war if it actually pit itself against Colonial powers things would be happening.

OOC: Franklin Jr. and Kermit are hypothetical kids of course. The Dems and Reps are much more of a mishmash of political viewpoints with the Dems being more fiscally liberal/progressive but retaining the South and its social conservatism while the Reps are socially liberal and more split between Taft's laissez-faire fiscal policies and the Roosevelt progressivism.

World GDP is a decent amount higher without two world wars and a much less crippling Great Depression (1930's were difficult but not disastrous). Here's what I would think would be a good shakedown

World - 85-90 Trillion (vs 62 Trillion)
USA - 18 Trillion
Japan - 9.5 Trillion (of course including Korea and Taiwan boosts its numbers quite a bit)
Russia - 8 Trillion (Includes a lot of area that would be Manchuria / Northern China.)
Germany / Britain - Around 6 Trillion Each
China - 5 Trillion (much smaller population than OTL without Mao, around 700 million people)
France / Brazil / Austria Hungary - 4 Trillion
Italy / Spain / Canada / Mexico / S. Africa / Australia / Netherlands / Ottoman Empire - 1-3 Trillion



Republics tend to due better economically than autocracies however. That might balance it somewhat. I don't think the GDP would be much higher than today and it might even be a little lower.
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Republics tend to due better economically than autocracies however. That might balance it somewhat. I don't think the GDP would be much higher than today and it might even be a little lower.
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OOC: I'm kinda basing it on the fact that the Colonial powers are getting a lot better at 'exploiting' the resource bases of their colonies i.e. Africa has a fair bit more development in resource rich areas like the Congo. The locals are getting screwed over big time but in some areas like Rhodesia are actually much better off than OTL since their colonial masters don't give a fuck about local politics as long as it doesn't make them look bad or, worse, stop the flow of resources...

Yeah it's a crappy system but Europe has Africa / Middle East / India / Asia in a mutually cooperative vice grip that prevents the rise of Idi Amins, Ethiopian starvations, or Rwandan genocides. Of course it also prevents Nelson Mandelas, Arab Springs, or true strong national development in places like Viet-Nam, Indonesia, Qatar and the like.

Basically, without WW1 the European powers have a lot more resources to spend on their Colonial empires and once the people in charge start realizing a 'European Cooperative Colonial Union' would allow them to do a lot more in actually exploiting colonial areas things get really bleak for self determination in the Southern Hemisphere outside of Latin America. :(
 
One big thing would be the US ever becoming interested in anything outside its Sphere of Influence after Theodore Roosevelt. Wilson was kinda internationalist but he wasn't in power long before dieing of that stroke. I mean the Democrats are always "Focus on the US first above all" while the Reps are torn between the isolationist Taft wing and the interventionist Roosevelt wing that always comes to power under a Democratic or Taft wing Congress.

As an aside its amazing how much the Presidency looks like an elected monarchy anymore. I mean with 4 Republican Roosevelts (Theodore, Quentin, Franklin Jr.*, and most recently Kermit*, 3 Democratic Kennedy's (Joseph, Robert and now JFK Jr.), we've been under the rule of two families for more than 50 years! :eek:
Seemingly, there would likely be no more Kennedy or Roosevelt in the 2012 presidential election. President Kennedy has announced that he would not run for a third term, and would endorse his party's nominee.

Talking about the Democratic presidential primaries, opinion polls show that Senator Scott Brown of Massachusetts is leading all his rivals like Senator Rick Perry or Governor Joe Manchin, by double digits. The only possible Kennedy candidates have all decided not to run. Governor Christopher Kennedy of Illinois, just elected last year, has decided against running for president. Congressman Douglas Kennedy of New York has announced that he would run for the Senate, to succeed his brother, Robert F. Kennedy, Jr, who was killed in a automobile accident earlier this month. Congressman Joseph F. Kennedy [1] of Massachusetts, only 34, will run for the Senate next year, and he has publicly endorsed Scott Brown.

Regarding the Republican nomination, it's currently a dead heat between former Governor Mark Warner of Virginia, Congressman Ron Paul of Texas, former Governor Gary Johnson of New Mexico and Senator Chuck Robb II [2] of Virginia. Governor Quentin Roosevelt III [2] of New Jersey has just announced that he would serve until the end of his term, and he has openly endorsed Governor Warner.

OOC:
[1] Joseph F. Kennedy is the grandson of Joseph P. Kennedy, Jr. in this TL.
[2] Fictional.

If the US tried I think it could become a diplomatic superpower and not merely an economic superpower and considering that the US's GDP is about twice that of Japan's* its diplomatic influence would be similarly outsized. Given the fact that the US has been theoretically against European style Colonialism post Spanish-American war if it actually pit itself against Colonial powers things would be happening.
Just like Prime Minister Maehara, President Kennedy has openly voiced his support towards "peaceful protesters in Europe and China". Recently, there have been talks of a possible Japo-American Alliance to counter the influence of tyrants and absolute monarchies. As usual, isolationist Republicans have condemned the possible alliance as "interventionist". Congressman Ron Paul, who is running for president next year, has warned that a cold war between absolute monarchies and democracies may occur and that President Kennedy "should be impeached".
 
Seemingly, there would likely be no more Kennedy or Roosevelt in the 2012 presidential election. President Kennedy has announced that he would not run for a third term, and would endorse his party's nominee.

Talking about the Democratic presidential primaries, opinion polls show that Senator Scott Brown of Massachusetts is leading all his rivals like Senator Rick Perry or Governor Joe Manchin, by double digits. The only possible Kennedy candidates have all decided not to run. Governor Christopher Kennedy of Illinois, just elected last year, has decided against running for president. Congressman Douglas Kennedy of New York has announced that he would run for the Senate, to succeed his brother, Robert F. Kennedy, Jr, who was killed in a automobile accident earlier this month. Congressman Joseph F. Kennedy [1] of Massachusetts, only 34, will run for the Senate next year, and he has publicly endorsed Scott Brown.

Regarding the Republican nomination, it's currently a dead heat between former Governor Mark Warner of Virginia, Congressman Ron Paul of Texas, former Governor Gary Johnson of New Mexico and Senator Chuck Robb II [2] of Virginia. Governor Quentin Roosevelt III [2] of New Jersey has just announced that he would serve until the end of his term, and he has openly endorsed Governor Warner.

OOC:
[1] Joseph F. Kennedy is the grandson of Joseph P. Kennedy, Jr. in this TL.
[2] Fictional.

Just like Prime Minister Maehara, President Kennedy has openly voiced his support towards "peaceful protesters in Europe and China". Recently, there have been talks of a possible Japo-American Alliance to counter the influence of tyrants and absolute monarchies. As usual, isolationist Republicans have condemned the possible alliance as "interventionist". Congressman Ron Paul, who is running for president next year, has warned that a cold war between absolute monarchies and democracies may occur and that President Kennedy "should be impeached".


Can we leave out real life people/families? They are all going to be butterflied away almost 100 years later. There wouldn't be a John Kennedy as his dad wouldn't have sex with his mom the same exact second as in TTL and the same sperm wouldn't hit the same egg. Even if it did history would have changed so much he wouldn't be the same person. That goes for every other real life person mentioned born before 1900 or so (Anyone born before then MIGHT have their personalities so set even WWI won't effect them much).
 
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Can we leave out real life people/families? They are all going to be butterflied away almost 100 years later. There wouldn't be a John Kennedy as his dad wouldn't have sex with his mom the same exact second as in TTL and the same sperm wouldn't hit the same egg. Even if it did history would have changed so much he wouldn't be the same person. That goes for every other real life person mentioned born before 1900 or so (Anyone born before then MIGHT have their personalities so set even WWI won't effect them much).

OOC: Although to some extent I agree with you, it's actually not that unlikely in at least one specific instance:

1) Even if they conceive completely different children, the Kennedy's are going to name the first male child Joseph (which may or may not be before the POD anyway) after his father. They are going to name one of their other male children, and probably the second, John Fitzgerald, after Rose's father. These were very common family traditions of those days.

This John F. Kennedy may not look or sound exactly like OTL JFK, and he might even have a different personality, but he'd still be named John F. Kennedy.

It's possible that they might end up with all female children, but this is fiction, so we're allowed to play a little bit.

2) A large number of Joseph Kennedy's children ended up going into politics, and the Kennedys had lots of children (and are very likely going to have lots of children, they're still the same people). Joseph Kennedy Sr himself was of a political bent. Maybe the POD is early enough that he wouldn't have made the connections he had OTL, but it's not unlikely for him to still get deeply involved in Boston politics and make some different connections. And, if he did make the connections, then why wouldn't he and his children use them to get as much political power as they can?

Now, if we accept that, would we end up with huge dynasties of both Kennedys and Roosevelts still around one hundred years later? unlikely, and it does begin to stretch the believability continuum, but not completely implausible...

However, in addition to this, also having people like Mark Warner, Scott Brown, Ron Paul and Gary Johnson all in similar political positions as OTL? These I do agree are highly unlikely, and much more difficult to believe.
 
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