DBWI AHC: Hitler conquers France

While Guderian's plan to push through the Ardennes and race to the Channel was sound, it had no chance against the French Army defending their land for the third time in as many generations. Two weeks later the French were occupying the Rhur while Germany crumbled into a three way civil war between the Nazi Party, SS, and Wehrmacht.

So your challenge if you choose to accept it is for the reverse to happen. And please don't shout ASB just yet.
 
The quickest and some might say overly simple way would be to slow France's mobilizations down. The French government was still some what in denial about the scope of Germany's ambitions so many would likely not have seen invasion as likely. If the Germans were able to better move troops to the border or if the invasion of Poland went faster then they might have been able to strike before the army had time to ready itself for war.

The issue in conquering France (or really any country) is that it is a very large place. In the past simply installing a new king or convincing nobles to to surrender was enough. With the formation of national identities and central governments few armies have the manpower to effectively hold an entire country that is on the same technological level.
 

Asami

Banned
You'd have to butterfly away Petain's high position after the war in the armed forces, as he was a key proponent of the early motorized warfare idea. The French doctrine of "guerre-éclair" eventually gave them the extra boost to drain the Wehrmacht's manpower and triumphantly cross to the Rhine.

If you made Petain unimportant after the Great War, you'd more than likely be able to give Hitler an edge.
 
Maybe you could butterfly the 1936 french war games where that major, Degull? or somthing, snuck an attack through the Ardennes. Maybe the French would have left them uncovered or too lightly covered and the germans wouldnt get their heads handed to them by the defenders. (Kinda ASB I know but the French army was so strong that you would need some kind of really major screw-up)
 
You'd have to butterfly away Petain's high position after the war in the armed forces, as he was a key proponent of the early motorized warfare idea. The French doctrine of "guerre-éclair" eventually gave them the extra boost to drain the Wehrmacht's manpower and triumphantly cross to the Rhine.

If you made Petain unimportant after the Great War, you'd more than likely be able to give Hitler an edge.
The problem with getting rid of Petain is then you take away Vichy France, and even if Germany is able to conquer all of France military (still a big if at the time) then he would have an even harder time with the resistances.
 
It couldn't hurt to get rid of that incompetent drug addict, Goring. With someone who knew what they were doing, the German Air Force might have managed to at least contest Allied air superiority over the battlefield.
 
The problem with getting rid of Petain is then you take away Vichy France, and even if Germany is able to conquer all of France military (still a big if at the time) then he would have an even harder time with the resistances.

What's Vichy France ?
 
What's Vichy France ?
It's the premature puppet government Germany set up in the small area of France they had occupied before soon being pushed out.

And as for the question, you'd need the French also investing far more effort, funding and faith in their Maginot Line - to the point where they believe it is invincible, even?
 
It's the premature puppet government Germany set up in the small area of France they had occupied before soon being pushed out.

And as for the question, you'd need the French also investing far more effort, funding and faith in their Maginot Line - to the point where they believe it is invincible, even?

Oh, I had forgotten that, it only lasted what? a couple of weeks?

On your main point you're back to getting rid of Petains thesis on the importance of speed and mobility in the offence that shaped French military thinking after WWI, I suppose you could have him go the other way in his theories, but how are you going to justify the change without going ASB?

The whole idea of the Maginot line was to slow the german army and set them up for the French armor and air forces not to stop them the idea was to control their penetration.
 
On your main point you're back to getting rid of Petains thesis on the importance of speed and mobility in the offence that shaped French military thinking after WWI, I suppose you could have him go the other way in his theories, but how are you going to justify the change without going ASB?

Easy, an even worse Great Depression which leads France to cut the defence expenditure to a greater amount and more stiff opposition from other French military leaders and politicians in regards to a mobile war fought with tanks and aircraft.

This could have the butterfly effect of the French administration thinking it will play it more safely by investing more extensively in OTL's formidable but still surmountable Maginot Line to become a truly awe-inspiring monument to halting Germany's advance stone-cold rather than allowing them to pierce past it and possibly have the air force and tank units be ineffective as was once feared. Furthermore, investment in the Maginot Line would have led to less funds available elsewhere in the French military, so less funding for the purchase of aircraft, armoured vehicles and motorization.

And whilst the French are sitting in their fortresses in the Maginot Line, Germany cuts through the poorly-equipped divisions in the north (as a result of the aforementioned factors), and the units at the Maginot Line are cut off, eventually besieged and destroyed. Meanwhile, the rest of the Wehrmacht sweeps through northern France, with the French (and even British maybe?) capitulating and signing an armistice with the Germans. I know it sounds almost like a Naziwank but I certainly think it could be possible.
 
It's the premature puppet government Germany set up in the small area of France they had occupied before soon being pushed out.

And as for the question, you'd need the French also investing far more effort, funding and faith in their Maginot Line - to the point where they believe it is invincible, even?

OOC: Vichy is in central France. Germany would never have held it if they never conquered France.
 
Let's say Hitler did conquer France and a puppet fascist government is formed. What happens in the French Empire? Presumably the Free French forces move to Algeria, and the Empire remains loyal to Algiers rather to the puppet regime. The next battleground will be in North Africa, where Mussolini will try to remove France from the Mediterranean.

When Mussolini inevitably struggles, Hitler will devote his best generals to North Africa. In which case he may not be able to execute his plan to invade the Soviet Union. Can you imagine how bloody that would have been? :eek:

Back IOTL, Britain and France warned Japan that an attack on their colonies in Asia will be considered an attack on the others' motherland. If France falls, Japan will be tempted to invade French Indochina. It probably won't, knowing it will be at war with Britain.
 

Archibald

Banned
OOC: Vichy is in central France. Germany would never have held it if they never conquered France.
A little know factoid is that Skorzeny commandos jumped over Vichy and briefly occupied that city.
It is rumoured Hitler suffered from kidney stones, and Vichy well known mineral water is excellent to cure this illness.
Another theory is that Goering had a sore throat, and once again "Vichy pills" (merde, les pastilles Vichy, how do you say that in english ?) are a good cure)

OOC: OTL the French puppet government went to Vichy because the damn city had plenty of hotels to house the government, all this because it was a spa town, courtsey of the infamous mineral water.
Same thing happened to Evian at the end of the Algerian war...
 
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There is four things with Vichy France

  • it allowed the French people to switch sides without feeling like they committed treason (less resistance movements)
  • most of the French Navy originally side with Vichy France (French Navy no longer a factor)
  • and it split the French Army and territory (giving the Nazis a foothold)
  • formation of Vichy France demoralized French troops (they felt hopeless and put up less fight)
if you remove those regardless if Vichy France had any other effects France isn't as easy a target
 
Solarity: Ok, a stretch but not ASB Hoover somehow fumbles the 29 crash intervention and it could go a lot worse, no soft landing. Then the ripples would change a lot of things. Governments all over the world would have been affected if it had snowballed.

Side thought, if it was that bad I think Hoover might likely loose the next election, butterflies all over the place.
 
While Guderian's plan to push through the Ardennes and race to the Channel was sound, it had no chance against the French Army defending their land for the third time in as many generations. Two weeks later the French were occupying the Rhur while Germany crumbled into a three way civil war between the Nazi Party, SS, and Wehrmacht.

So your challenge if you choose to accept it is for the reverse to happen. And please don't shout ASB just yet.



I have gamed this battle/campaign repeatedly and have been called heretic for proposing that French doctrine and firepower would not have squelched the German offense under all circumstances. My contention is the break down in communications between the the several Corps HQ in Panzer Group Kliest and the Luftwaffe on 12 and 13 May was not a given. This sort of failure had was not evident in the rehearsal exercises in March and April, and was not across the board. The Pz Corps at Dinant had timely and accurate air support, as did all the Pz Corps from the 14th on.

My contention is had the three corps of PzGrp Kliest, attacking at Montherme, and Sedan had the air support typical of the rest of the campaign viable bridgeheads would have been established at least at Sedan and Dinant, and probably at Monthereme. The the relatively thin defenses at those locations (or better described as brittle in the case of Sedan) would have probably collapsed before reserves arrived to reinforce the threatened sectors. The track record of the Pz Corps in Poland and later in France shows clearly that once the enemy line was ruptured and the mechanized force through the defense was in real trouble.

In the case of the assualts across the Meuse river the failure of the essential air support meant the French had the 48 hours they needed to reinforce the threatened sectors and create the sort of artillery killing grounds the lightly armored German Pz Corps could not stand up to. I've gamed this one out many times with different game systems and the usual result is just 24 hours after breakthrough unimpeded by reserves is enough for the German PzCorps to consolidate their bridgeheads and disrupt fatally the French 2d and 9th Armies.

Skiping over the details the end result is usually the Allied armies consolidating south of Paris, with both side exhausted but the Germans claiming stratigic victory due to their possesing the bulk of French industry, population centers, as well as all of Belgium.

All this comes back to the Luftwaffe doing its staff work properly on the 12th and 13th May. The airstrikes rehearsed in April were massive and should have been devastating to the defenders. Such airstrikes succeeded on many other occasions. Odds are the defenders at Sedan, and perhaps Monthereme would have had their morale broken by the weight of the planned air attacks allowing at least Guderians Pz Corps a viable bridgehead and time to manuver. I'd also contend the severe casualties that crippled the Pz Corps would have been reduced, allowing them to take on larger French forces attempting to intervene, reinforce, and counter attack.

No need for ASB, or complex PoD reaching back years or decades, just the Luftwaffe staff not failing at a critical moment.
 
It couldn't hurt to get rid of that incompetent drug addict, Goring. With someone who knew what they were doing, the German Air Force might have managed to at least contest Allied air superiority over the battlefield.

Not talking about a jumped up corporal and failed artist as head of state and putting your secret police in the hands of a chicken farmer. All of whom were crazy enough to think about 1% of the population of the country were its secret masters. With those clowns in charge this is a near ASB scenario.
 
I dont see this as ASB. The nazi government had not yet corrupted or ruined the Army the way Goering had created structural problems in the air force, or the way the nazi party chiefs had severely damaged civil administration. While a complete French collapse such as occured in Poland may not have happened the German army did achieve many clear tactical and operational victories in 1939-40. Had the air force support been a bit better 13-14 May I see it as possible at least two more of the Pz Corps could have disrupted the French 2d and 9th Armies and unhinged the Dyle plan. The loss of the Netherlands, Flanders and the French northern provinces coupled with a deep advance of Kleists armored group and the destruction of either the 2d and 9th Armies would have a devasating effect on French morale. Even if Paris is not captured Renauds government may fall & if not then Renaud would be under enormous pressure to achieve a cease fire. We have to remember that Chamberlains government did end effectively before the German offensive started. The actual date of Chamberlains termination as PM reflected the time it took to form the complex coaltion government in the UK.
 
Have you seen the Maginot Line?

Parts of it are still there.

I've looked at it, touched it, marveled at it.

Even in its apparently "reduced" form, it's nothing to trifle with.
 
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