DBWI AH Challenge: Federal Republic of Germany

((Inspired by recent comments in the Bavarian Empire thread...))

The map shows the states of the Federal Republic of Germany, circa 2006. The bordering states should be obvious, south is Switzerland and Austria (but much smaller, and also a Republic- no more Hapsburgs in TTL), to the west is France and the Low Countries (Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg), and East is Poland.

bundeslaender-aktiv.gif
 
Imajin said:
((Inspired by recent comments in the Bavarian Empire thread...))

The map shows the states of the Federal Republic of Germany, circa 2006. The bordering states should be obvious, south is Switzerland and Austria (but much smaller, and also a Republic- no more Hapsburgs in TTL), to the west is France and the Low Countries (Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg), and East is Poland.
Very intresting, what caused the abloishment of the kingdoms under the Kaiser? Presumably losing a war could have caused the loss of territory, and may even expalin why its no onger under an Emporer, but the individual kings?
 

Thande

Donor
Tsk tsk, Imajin, this is so like you. Will you not get it into your thick skull that Austria will NEVER become a republic?! Why do you hate the Hapsburgs so much?! :mad:

(OOC: Thanks for making my throwaway comment in the Bavaria thread into this DB :) )
 

Straha

Banned
He has something against noblism eh? He should be careful what he posts on the Worldnet since I think the habsburgs believe in data surveillence...
 
I don´t see how the Oder-Neisse frontier was accepted in this TL with the huge influx of east-born refugees after 45.
Did the SPD/FDP coalition disenfranchise those who weren´t born in the new countries frontier?
 
The abolishment of kingdoms could have occured had there been a successful Marxist or Fascistic uprising in Germany, like there was in France after the First Great War.

Easy. Germany loses a war big, and there's an uprising - but the old regime / some other group or nation holds Prussia. However, an independent Poland extending as far west as the Oder-Niesse line seems very unlikely - the only possibility that I can think is that would work is that the territory was taken over by Russia and then became independent...

very obvious that in this TL Germany lost the Great War, badly. Not sure how, though...
 
danielb1 said:
very obvious that in this TL Germany lost the Great War, badly. Not sure how, though...

Well, the first aberration in the timeline is that the Germans invade France through Belgium. Why on earth would they have done that and provoke England's entry into the war while they could very well do without in 1870?

But where the timeline really becomes ASB is when the Belgians do actually resist, and gain enough time for the Brits to land and the French to reorient their flank. I mean, to believe that a small country of self-content bourgeois, which wasn't even a real nation and didn't even last for 100 years OTL could have pulled such a feat... Where did they find that?
 
How was Poland even strong enough to push the Germans not only west of the Oder, but out of Stettin as well? And what became of Prussia in your scenanario where Alien Space-Bats are clearly at work?
 
Hermanubis said:
I'd like to see how Prussia looks here (seems its not part of Germany)
No Prussia- right now in the TL's current incarnation Konigsberg is part of Russia, I think most of the Germans there would have fled but I'm not sure...

Tsk tsk, Imajin, this is so like you. Will you not get it into your thick skull that Austria will NEVER become a republic?! Why do you hate the Hapsburgs so much?! :mad:
You European types are too obsessed with monarchies... in TTL this is all resolved, Germany, Austria (as well as all the successor states), Italy, Portugal, Serbia, Greece, Romania, Bulgaria, and Russia (just to name a few!) are all Republics... I don't see why anyone would be a monarchist...
 

corourke

Donor
Perhaps in this timeline the Prussians never consider themselves German? Perhaps Poland is what remains of a Prussian Empire? Or maybe there's a Baltic Prussian Empire in the east, too far east to see in this map?
 
Imajin said:
No Prussia- right now in the TL's current incarnation Konigsberg is part of Russia, I think most of the Germans there would have fled but I'm not sure...
Russian Prussia? Seriously, you’ve got to be kidding… :rolleyes:
 
And why a Federal Republic? (To Americans: In Europe, "federal" doesn't mean "centralized" but "with some rights for the states / länder / whatever".) Either Germany will stay split and only loosely confederated, or (if you want something ASBish) some uber-politician has to come and unite all of Germany under his iron heel - and after that, he'd show the world, what a united Germany can do! Mwahaha and ha!
 
Good Lord, guys, look at the shape of those Länder! Baden and Wurttemberg united? Hanover split? Prussia dismembered, with much of its core territory ceded to foreign powers? Berlin got some weird kind of 'free city' status (and how does Hamburg get to swallow up Altona, but not the Lübeck corridor?)

Losintg the Great War alone is not going to do that. Neither is a Fascist takeover. Remember, Fascists believe in traditional identity politics. I'm thinking, this could either be the result of an earlier POD, or a later deliberate policy of emasculation.

Think 1848 - the German rebels are successful with the aid of Polish insurrections stopping Russian troops from entering Prussia and binding large contingents that could otherwise interfere with the German revolutions. This new map is drawn by the victorious Rebel government ruling the country from - where? Frankfurt? Anyhow, it is fairly obvious that the Southwest was rewarded - retaining many of its original frontiers. Berlin, Hamburg and Bremen, with great sympathies for the revolution, were also given expanded borders and free status (Altona must have been thrown in when they took Schleswig-Holstein from Denmark, maybe as an exercise in national unity creation? Nothing like a good war to stir patriotic spirits), while Prussia was dismembered and large areas ceded to the Polish allies. The rhenish states got merged into this 'Nordrhein' monstrosity (I can't see how that would ever work - the Catholics and Protestants hate each other's guts down there!). Lübeck, traditional and conservative, is just swallowed up and dies. But whatz on earth could have moved them to create this Saar enclave? Is this supposed to be the relic of some kind of border dispute with France?

Alternatively, maybe this was the attempt by a foreign power to deliberately 'Swissify' Germany? Every state that could have expansionist intentions was artificially destroyed. Most obviously, Prussia is gone. Austria is reduced to the size of Switzerland, and it seems Bohemia and Moravia also went separate ways. Nordrhein-thingy has the heavy industry, but no ports or recruitment bases. Major urban and maritime centres have been cut out of large states (that may explasin the Saar - with that kind of mining and heavy industry, Baden-Wurttemberg might one day develop ambitions). Large agriculturalised surface states are separated from cities and industries. Bavaria got off liughtly, it seems, but they are ringed around with neighbours of similar size and power, and without a major industrial base. I don't see how, though. This wouldn't just require a defeat, it would require utter humiliation - little short of a colonial regime. Doubtlessly the French would like to, but there is no way they would be strong enough, and why leave the major powers near the French border? - no, not the French. It must have been the Russians! Some kind of major Russian victory, and they leave Germany in no state to ever attack them again before retreating (probabnly on British pressure). It still dioesn't explain Poland, though - except, maybe, given all that German territory, Poland must forever depend on Russia for its safety. Even this rump Germany could whip them anytime.

Life in this new statelet must be awful, though. The government in perpetual gridlock, the middle states riven by confessional dissent and the cities in conflict with the surface states. It's probably also quite poor, maybe even starving, given it's lost its most productive lands in the East. Was that the idea behind this ATL? Create something like a German 'Ireland'? I could see Nordrhein-thingy (I am fascinated by that monster, honestly) become worse than The Pale in the 60s and 70s with sectarian riots and bombings. And I can't see a German government implementing the kind of enlightened Home Rule principles London did.
 
Wait A D--n Minute! Am I seeing things or do the Czechs have there own Nation! that would NEVER happen:rolleyes: I mean how long has Austria Controled that?
 
rowmaster said:
Wait A D--n Minute! Am I seeing things or do the Czechs have there own Nation! that would NEVER happen:rolleyes: I mean how long has Austria Controled that?

Less than four centuries :rolleyes: as of now. Though you do know there are more Czechs than Austrians in Empire? For chrissakes Vienna itself is bilingual and the prime minister is fluent in Czech (he has grandmother from old Czech nobility). So we are happy in our Empire but it is not about being non-existant. Now our won indpendant state... whyt the heck would we be independent next to Germany and Poland??? We are happy where we are :mad:.
 
Max Sinister said:
And why a Federal Republic? (To Americans: In Europe, "federal" doesn't mean "centralized" but "with some rights for the states / länder / whatever".) Either Germany will stay split and only loosely confederated, or (if you want something ASBish) some uber-politician has to come and unite all of Germany under his iron heel- and after that, he'd show the world, what a united Germany can do! Mwahaha and ha!
That might actually be what happened to get this map:p
 
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