Especially if he chooses someone other than Michele Bachmann as his VP next time around.
DBWI: Abraham Lincoln wasn't killed by a bear?
- Thread starter ArKhan
- Start date
Especially if he chooses someone other than Michele Bachmann as his VP next time around.
OOC: Hey guys, we really need to agree on something here...
1836-1852: Whig vs. Democrat
1856-1892: Republican vs. Democrat
1892-1920: Populist vs. Democrat
1924-1936: Socialist vs. Democrat
1940-1964: Radical vs. Democrat
1968-NOW: Socialist vs. Democrat
And retcon everything else. How about that? After all, this is America, political chaos is not that common.
1836-1852: Whig vs. Democrat
1856-1892: Republican vs. Democrat
1892-1920: Populist vs. Democrat
1924-1936: Socialist vs. Democrat
1940-1964: Radical vs. Democrat
1968-NOW: Socialist vs. Democrat
And retcon everything else. How about that? After all, this is America, political chaos is not that common.
It's worth it, though: Lower Canada has an interesting culture and French in my opinion is a beautiful language. Also, it's part of the Union of Francophone States, so you get all the benefits of that. And, of course, liberal politics.
OOC: Would they still use the terms Lower and Upper Canada, though?
I think many people give too much credit to radicals. Whatever they were decennials ago, they're little much than "We're not democrats. Except we are but we're named radicals".
There's no great opposition against democrats today, except the so-called "West Coast Democrat" stuff inner faction. They end systematically by voting everything exactly as the rest of the Old Party.
Now, if we're talking about wildcard, I think the recent Socialist-Communist common candidacy could be of a certain importance amongst the south-western states. After all, southern Texas, Chihuaha and California were theire strong lands points since the 60's and the recent election in Detroit of the socialist Joan Hernandez show a new rise of this.
Of course, it's only an electoral front and I doubt it will survive long enough to be more than a fantasmed threat for moderates and right-wing. Still, it could be a enough important threat to push the radicals once more into the democrats arms and to force the anti-demo political forces to join the Social-Communists.
There's no great opposition against democrats today, except the so-called "West Coast Democrat" stuff inner faction. They end systematically by voting everything exactly as the rest of the Old Party.
Now, if we're talking about wildcard, I think the recent Socialist-Communist common candidacy could be of a certain importance amongst the south-western states. After all, southern Texas, Chihuaha and California were theire strong lands points since the 60's and the recent election in Detroit of the socialist Joan Hernandez show a new rise of this.
Of course, it's only an electoral front and I doubt it will survive long enough to be more than a fantasmed threat for moderates and right-wing. Still, it could be a enough important threat to push the radicals once more into the democrats arms and to force the anti-demo political forces to join the Social-Communists.
OOC: The republicans collapsed in the 1870's.
IC:
I agree completely. Plus, I can always take French classes.
OOC: Edited it to Canada East and Canada West.It's worth it, though: Lower Canada has an interesting culture and French in my opinion is a beautiful language. Also, it's part of the Union of Francophone States, so you get all the benefits of that. And, of course, liberal politics.
OOC: Would they still use the terms Lower and Upper Canada, though?
OOC: Slightly changed up:
1836-1852: Whig vs. Democrat
1856-1872: Republican vs. Democrat
1872-1928: Populist vs. Democrat
1928-1940: Socialist vs. Democrat
1940-1968: Radical vs. Democrat
1968-NOW: Socialist vs. Democrat
I just tought about it, but didn't the book "Guns of the North" of Tartacolombo have a more or less similar POD?
It's a while since I read it, but I think it's about a zulunder of OTL preventing the death of Lincoln, making the whole south forming sort of ev0l anti-USA with a mass-scale war? (Though Lincoln still ends assasinated in 1862 by a southerner called Bear in the book)
I know it's borderline ASB (and not in the good side of it) but wouldn't a radicalization of southern democrats (without Hamelin resignation) could lead to a ,more plausible, widespread but isolated insurrections (à la Kansas) and finally an expedition against North Carolina?
It's a while since I read it, but I think it's about a zulunder of OTL preventing the death of Lincoln, making the whole south forming sort of ev0l anti-USA with a mass-scale war? (Though Lincoln still ends assasinated in 1862 by a southerner called Bear in the book)
I know it's borderline ASB (and not in the good side of it) but wouldn't a radicalization of southern democrats (without Hamelin resignation) could lead to a ,more plausible, widespread but isolated insurrections (à la Kansas) and finally an expedition against North Carolina?
Well maybe. But I seriously doubt there'd be anywhere near the full scale civil war described in that book.
Oh sure, that's preposterous. I mean functional submirines and machine-guns in the bloody 1860's? (Not talking about the post-war club with ghost-dressed slaver knights. What is this, alternate history or Scooby-Doo?)
All the stuff is a "let's put a Crimean War in Americas only with a low steampunk feeling". Talks about inspiration... It's not badly written but...well the author prides himself with a degree on ottoman studies, and I think he should stay with this for his next books.
Ok, I have a good TL idea...
Lincoln does not get killed by the bear. At the end of 1860, South Carolina seceedes. This is and of itself doesn't sound too implausible, because as we all know, South Carolina threatens to seceed whenever they don't get what they want. This leads to a domino effect, and 7 southern states seceed. They call themselves the "confederate states of America" and place their capital in Charleston.
Lincoln makes a blunder, and sends war material to Fort Sumter, ordering them to fire on the mainland. All the slave states that aren't Delaware seceed. Lincoln is impeached, and a peace agreement is formed, the Confederates going their own way.
What do you guys think?
Lincoln does not get killed by the bear. At the end of 1860, South Carolina seceedes. This is and of itself doesn't sound too implausible, because as we all know, South Carolina threatens to seceed whenever they don't get what they want. This leads to a domino effect, and 7 southern states seceed. They call themselves the "confederate states of America" and place their capital in Charleston.
Lincoln makes a blunder, and sends war material to Fort Sumter, ordering them to fire on the mainland. All the slave states that aren't Delaware seceed. Lincoln is impeached, and a peace agreement is formed, the Confederates going their own way.
What do you guys think?
I could see Lincoln trying to do that... he was a frontier lawyer and probably didn't have the least idea about diplomacy outside of theory. The problem is that his cabinet would have to include experienced-enough men to satisfy the different Republican Party factions, and they would know what was going on and try to stop him.
How's this sound instead: When they form the "Confederate States of America," Lincoln puts ships outside their harbors to collect customs duties. Some Confederate-registered ship refuses to stop and gets fired upon, starting the war. Lincoln orders the navy to seize some harbor... say Charleston because that's the capitol... but it's too well-defended and hands the North an ignominious defeat.
From here, you can spin out as short or long a Civil War as you want; the main things it depends on (besides the chances of battle) are the Northern public sentiment, the attitudes of the upper southern states that the Republicans will want to keep in the Union at all costs (I don't see Virginia letting any overland invasion through), and whether foreign countries will try to recognize the South.
Looking back - As there were democrat presidents in 1910s which had no majority in the House and Senate you did not intervene in the Great War. But imagine the constellation was different. Do you think it is possible to avoid isolationism and the US could actually save the Entente. The US woudl have the manpower, resources and money to do it. But WOULD they do it? US being more international orientated might even avoid the Japanese takeover of Hawaii in the late 20s.
What do you think would happen to East and West Canada? Do you think they might unite into one big Canada in the face of a stronger US?
I honestly doubt they'd unify. The language barrier is there, there's a culture barrier, and multilingual countries tend to not succeed anyways. I mean just look at Belgium. I think Wallonia still tries to claim Brussel shouldn't be part of Flanders. They might be better friends, but unification seems a little implausible.
At this point, sadly, yes. Although, TBH, the language thing isn't so much of a problem, mainly because Assiniboia[OTL's Alberta] has a large(mainly Metis) Francophone minority, and three of five of East Canada's major cities(Toronto, Thunder Bay, and Loganville[OTL's Windsor], all in Ontario, btw), are still Anglophone by a large majority. However, though, one of the biggest issue is the governing style: Both are democracies, yes, but East Canada is still a member of the Commonwealth, complete with Parliament and all, while West Canada is a constitutional republic(albeit a very progressive one!), with President, Congress and all.
The motor industry is rather different, too: East Canadian companies take much of their influence from Europe(with some American mixed in), while West Canada is mostly American(with a little Japanese), and the same goes for car culture, particularly where imports are concerned: why do you think European cars had more success than American cars in Ontario, Quebec, New Brunswick, New Ireland, Labrador, Nova Scotia and Newfoundland(East Canada's provinces), and vice versa in Keewatin, Chippewa, Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Assiniboia, Athabasca, Cascadia, and the Yukon(West Canada's provinces)?
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This thread shows a lot of ignorance regarding the Death of President Lincoln.
First of all the attack occurred on April 14, 1861. If it had happened in January he would be called President-Elect Lincoln, but as we know he was in fact President if only for a brief period. He was president for a mere 41 days; a feat only surpassed by William Henry Harrison.
Second, Lincoln was almost assuredly killed by a Mountain Lion. Black Bears almost never attack something as large as a horse. In 1960 (the centennial of Lincoln's death) when medical examiners exhumed his body they found that the bite marks on his skull and clavicle matched those of a very large cougar, not a bear.
Third, eyewitness testimony by Herndon and Robert Lincoln state that Mary Todd was is a hysterical state. People questioning her about the attack, including Seward, almost certainly planted the idea that it was a bear. Given the poor light and the speed of the attack it is likely Mrs. Lincoln never even saw the creature very clearly. Either way Mrs. Lincoln was never all that stable on the best of days, given what had just occurred it is likely she would have blamed the devil himself if someone had told her too. (In fact Robert's diary asserts that she was indeed blaming supernatural elements and called several spiritualists and even an exorcist to cleanse the area where the attack occurred. It was for the best to have her institutionalized in 1865.)
Finally, the myth of "Bear Bait Lincoln" has entered popular folklore and isn't going to change anytime soon. The South had a field day upon his death. I've seen old pamphlets saying things ranging from "Lincoln, the Unbearable President!" to "We can't Bear the Republicans!" It's sad that the event has spawned hundreds of bad puns that school kids have too learn in history class. Though truth be told Sam Clemens's "The Beastial Bear of St. George's County" and Ambrose Bierce's entry in his Devil's Dictionary regarding the event are both classics in American satire.
Benjamin
First of all the attack occurred on April 14, 1861. If it had happened in January he would be called President-Elect Lincoln, but as we know he was in fact President if only for a brief period. He was president for a mere 41 days; a feat only surpassed by William Henry Harrison.
Second, Lincoln was almost assuredly killed by a Mountain Lion. Black Bears almost never attack something as large as a horse. In 1960 (the centennial of Lincoln's death) when medical examiners exhumed his body they found that the bite marks on his skull and clavicle matched those of a very large cougar, not a bear.
Third, eyewitness testimony by Herndon and Robert Lincoln state that Mary Todd was is a hysterical state. People questioning her about the attack, including Seward, almost certainly planted the idea that it was a bear. Given the poor light and the speed of the attack it is likely Mrs. Lincoln never even saw the creature very clearly. Either way Mrs. Lincoln was never all that stable on the best of days, given what had just occurred it is likely she would have blamed the devil himself if someone had told her too. (In fact Robert's diary asserts that she was indeed blaming supernatural elements and called several spiritualists and even an exorcist to cleanse the area where the attack occurred. It was for the best to have her institutionalized in 1865.)
Finally, the myth of "Bear Bait Lincoln" has entered popular folklore and isn't going to change anytime soon. The South had a field day upon his death. I've seen old pamphlets saying things ranging from "Lincoln, the Unbearable President!" to "We can't Bear the Republicans!" It's sad that the event has spawned hundreds of bad puns that school kids have too learn in history class. Though truth be told Sam Clemens's "The Beastial Bear of St. George's County" and Ambrose Bierce's entry in his Devil's Dictionary regarding the event are both classics in American satire.
Benjamin
Well whatever it was, it's certianly interesting that a random animal can have such a huge impact on human history. Kind of like that pig that killed the King of France, or the monkey who's bit the Sultan of Turkey, causing him to die of infection and winning the war for the Greeks.