DBWI - A visit to HMS Hood

As long as this does not turn into a Hood Vs King George V i am fine, i think it would give the tour guide i had a hart attack if he discoverer that there are still people who think it was the King George V who fired the 'lucky hit'.

I'm so sorry, I had no intention of opening that can of worms when I mentioned it. It's one of the driest, most pointless debates on alternate WW2 forums.
Besides, didn't KGV have a turret failure around the time of the hit?
(Poor Prince Eugene*, in gun range of two BB, two CA, and six DD and no where to run.)

*Can't remember the correct German spelling, so I used the English.
 
On a more somber note, I once visited the Force Z memorial in the Arboretum. It seemed like an inadequate thing, to honor the loss of three capital ships and so many of their crews.

I found myself wishing that Indomitable had scraped that reef harder -- Phillips would never have gone looking for a fight without her air cover, inadequate though it proved to be.

Well I would argue that force Z 'died' doing their jobs (ie decimating Yamashita's 25th Army transports in the Gulf of Thailand on the 8th before they could unload) and Indomitables fighters did take a serious toll of the IJNs Elite land based bombers which as a result went from 88 aircraft on the 8th Dec to 22 operational aircraft on the 9th Nov and forced the Japanese to withdraw them after only a week in theatre.

Percival's 3 'Divisions' (in reality each comprised only 2 weak brigades) would have been hard pressed to stop Yamashitas veterans had they managed to complete their landings.

I think 3 Ships (plus 1 Cruiser) is a small price to pay for Malaya holding on until reinforcements could arrive.

Malaya might even have fallen and Singapore besieged had it not been for 'Tom Thumb's' gamble!

And personally I think he would have gone with out the aircover!
 
Wasn't there a plan to do a movie about Force Z in the 60's, I recall reading that they had planned to put Peter Cushing as playing Vice Admiral Phillips, but it didn't go ahead due to the success of Dr No and the start of the Bond Craze. And you also had Attenboroughs critically acclaimed Operation Overlord movie The Longest Day, which consumed a huge amount of Hollywoods acting talent, meaning that not many folks were available to film 'yet another' War movie.
 

Saphroneth

Banned
You know, it occurs to me that Fisher would probably have considered Hood either the best example of his craft... or a terrible compromise. Hood was a battlecruiser, yes, perhaps the most successful of all, but he'd consider her far too heavily armoured. (Which of course contributed to her survival - that turret hit might have blown another BC to bits.)

I once calculated it out, and by sacrificing all armour beyond the turrets you could get a 12x18" ship at 35 knots! (Of course, she'd be vulnerable to, uh, everything - including bumping into a shark.)
 
As for which shell hit the German BB well those big heavy fat slow 15" shells would have been coming down near vertically at those ranges and linking Hood to KGVs modern Fire control made sure that both ships straddled the Bismarck fairly quickly at long range .

I think it's likely that one of Hoods 15 shells hit either forward of Anton or between Anton and Bruno Turrets and penetrating the deck entered or detonating near, the powder magazine (bypassing the angled armor) which unlike the other modern treaty designs of the day was above the Shell room and horribly exposed to such shell fire and aircraft bombs.

So you don't like the opposing theory of a hit diving under Bismarck's somewhat shallow belt?
 
Well I would argue that force Z 'died' doing their jobs (ie decimating Yamashita's 25th Army transports in the Gulf of Thailand on the 8th before they could unload) and Indomitables fighters did take a serious toll of the IJNs Elite land based bombers which as a result went from 88 aircraft on the 8th Dec to 22 operational aircraft on the 9th Nov and forced the Japanese to withdraw them after only a week in theatre.

Percival's 3 'Divisions' (in reality each comprised only 2 weak brigades) would have been hard pressed to stop Yamashitas veterans had they managed to complete their landings.

I think 3 Ships (plus 1 Cruiser) is a small price to pay for Malaya holding on until reinforcements could arrive.

Malaya might even have fallen and Singapore besieged had it not been for 'Tom Thumb's' gamble!

And personally I think he would have gone with out the aircover!

I totally agree that he goes without air cover. Geoffrey Till found that letter Phillips wrote his wife in the family archives where he said that he wasn't sure he wanted Indomitable along because he did not want to have to worry about covering for her if they blundered into a heavy Japanese surface group. Obviously HMS Glorious was on his mind, but I think that letter and other statements he made show that he wasn't exactly "air minded" shall we say.
 
On a more somber note, I once visited the Force Z memorial in the Arboretum. It seemed like an inadequate thing, to honor the loss of three capital ships and so many of their crews.

I found myself wishing that Indomitable had scraped that reef harder -- Phillips would never have gone looking for a fight without her air cover, inadequate though it proved to be.

Without the loss of Indomitable in the Far East, perhaps the Royal Navy would get the Implacable class into service later than OTL.
 
So you don't like the opposing theory of a hit diving under Bismarck's somewhat shallow belt?

I think that under normal circumstances any shell that 'got that far' and had not exploded as it hit the water was not going to (see the underwater 15" Dud the KGV took during the battle!) So I think its unlikely but not totally impossible.

Also the angle is all wrong Bismarck was nearly bow on when she went up (Survivors claim she was just making her turn) and any underwater hit is likely to have hit the shell room and not the powder room if it had.

So I think it more likely given the range that it was a plunging hit rather than a 'Torpedo' hit - but we will probably never know for sure.


I totally agree that he goes without air cover. Geoffrey Till found that letter Phillips wrote his wife in the family archives where he said that he wasn't sure he wanted Indomitable along because he did not want to have to worry about covering for her if they blundered into a heavy Japanese surface group. Obviously HMS Glorious was on his mind, but I think that letter and other statements he made show that he wasn't exactly "air minded" shall we say.

I don't think that's entirely fair - after all he had operated for a period in the Med as part of Force H and been subjected to Italian Air attack (in which the crew of POW had conducted themselves well) - I think he knew that he would be out numbered and having HMS Hermes in tow (which I think he was referring too in those letters as they pre dated HMS Indomitable's arrival) would have slowed him down and made his whole force more vulnerable to the Battle Cruisers and Cruisers opposing him.

Not so with Indomitable which was as fast as his ships and quite well armed with a larger and better balanced airgroup.

That being said - Phillips was old school and as such it would have been unthinkable for the Royal Navy to do nothing knowing how weak the Malayan Force was in reality.
 
I think that under normal circumstances any shell that 'got that far' and had not exploded as it hit the water was not going to (see the underwater 15" Dud the KGV took during the battle!) So I think its unlikely but not totally impossible.

Also the angle is all wrong Bismarck was nearly bow on when she went up (Survivors claim she was just making her turn) and any underwater hit is likely to have hit the shell room and not the powder room if it had.

So I think it more likely given the range that it was a plunging hit rather than a 'Torpedo' hit - but we will probably never know for sure.

Yeah I'd forgotten that Bismarck was so bow on. Looking at her layout, there must have been a large area of deck forward of Anton that would allow a hit to penetrate into the magazine. The turtledeck is no use against raking fire like that.

I guess it shows just how much Bismarck was a product of Jutland. She'd probably have been very effective in a close-range exchange of broadside as part of a traditional line of battle. But in Europe, the battle line was a thing of the past. Her designers tried to re-fight the last war and her crew paid the price.
 
Also the angle is all wrong Bismarck was nearly bow on when she went up (Survivors claim she was just making her turn) and any underwater hit is likely to have hit the shell room and not the powder room if it had.

What survivors, i always toughed she went down with all 2,200 of here crew.
 
Wasn't there a plan to do a movie about Force Z in the 60's, I recall reading that they had planned to put Peter Cushing as playing Vice Admiral Phillips, but it didn't go ahead due to the success of Dr No and the start of the Bond Craze. And you also had Attenboroughs critically acclaimed Operation Overlord movie The Longest Day, which consumed a huge amount of Hollywoods acting talent, meaning that not many folks were available to film 'yet another' War movie.

Well I was always wondering why Hollywood woudl make a film about a battle that has basically lost the Allies the war in Europe. When Bismarck went down so easily our supreme leader lost all faith in the Kriegsmarine. Imagine a sucessful Atlantic breakout - imagine the RN losingb a few more ships. Probably we would NOT have withdrawn from Africa, we would NOT have reinforced our positions along the coast. We probably would have built far more submarines instead of Planes and tanks. That would have cost the axis the victory in Europe and probably the armistice in Asia would probably also would have been an allied victory. After all it was the German Luftflotte Fernost that shielded Japan and so many islands from allied aerial attacks.

It was foolish to try to invade mainland Europe just two months after the surrender of the Soviet Union.
 
Well I was always wondering why Hollywood woudl make a film about a battle that has basically lost the Allies the war in Europe. When Bismarck went down so easily our supreme leader lost all faith in the Kriegsmarine. Imagine a sucessful Atlantic breakout - imagine the RN losingb a few more ships. Probably we would NOT have withdrawn from Africa, we would NOT have reinforced our positions along the coast. We probably would have built far more submarines instead of Planes and tanks. That would have cost the axis the victory in Europe and probably the armistice in Asia would probably also would have been an allied victory. After all it was the German Luftflotte Fernost that shielded Japan and so many islands from allied aerial attacks.

It was foolish to try to invade mainland Europe just two months after the surrender of the Soviet Union.
OOC: this is none cannon, the Allies won the war, not Germany, yes it was different than OTL but the Allies won the war still.
 
OOC: the sinking of the Bismarck did not allow the Germans to win the WAR in OTL, here it is the Hood who mange to hit the Bismarck and sinks here instead of the other way around.

And thats the difference - as I mentioned. OTL Denmark strait was a victory - A germany battleship has WON - so thats a morale boost even if Bismarck was later sunk (Eugen escaped) TTL BOt Eugen and Bismark are defeated in the first engagemnet - Adolf panicas and concentrates on a land war and fortifies Europe much earlier. Little change - BIGGGG butterflies...

BTW - holding Malaya is also a mixed boon. - UK needs to constantly send reinforcements ;)
 
My pet theory is an early hit in the catapult system caused a major fire (Which happened) and that it diverted Lutjens attention enough to cause him to turn away allowing the plunging effect which caused the detonation.
 
OOC: Ignore him. Richter appears to have an inexplicable compulsion to turn every WWII DBWI into a Nazi victory, even when it contradicts the scenario laid out by previous posters.

OOC: thanks for feeling this way also, was almost ready to stop posting here because of that.
 
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