DBWI: a second great war?

As we all know, the Great War between Britian and Germany (and the various allies of each) was fought almost a century ago, and was the bloodiest conflict in human history. What if there was another equally bloody war say, 30 or so years later? How would this change history?

OOC: This is NOT a CP victory thread. No PODs before November 11th 1918.
 
Hmm. Well, I'd guess it'd be between Democracies and Communist nations. There was a lot of tension between Weimar Germany and the People's Republic of Bavaria. I guess it could result in one ideology becoming dominant, rather than the Cold War we have in OTL.
 
Didn't Turtledove write this book a few years back, "Guns of the East" or something that dealt with that? IIRC some maniac rises to Power in Germany and tries to take over Europe.
 
One has to ask if America's policies of racial apartheid, eugenics, monopolistic corporations, corporate militias, and imperial conquest (e.g. Manifest Destiny) could have been prevented. I know this may sound like ASB, but maybe the period between 1945-1992, when the country was partitioned, could have been avoided altogether....
 
Didn't Turtledove write this book a few years back, "Guns of the East" or something that dealt with that? IIRC some maniac rises to Power in Germany and tries to take over Europe.

Turtledove. :rolleyes:

He's a good author, but a poor historian. Germany just doesn't have the sheer power to really begin a worldwide war on its own. As I said in my previous post, a minor Weimar Germany and PRB war could end up a worldwide Democracy/Communist War, but I can't see the sort of GotE scenario play out, where Germany ended up pretty much conquering Europe. With the League of Nation mandate territories taken away, the PSB breaking away, and pressure from both the USSR and France (keep in mind that France is technically allied with Germany, but they're by no means friends!), there's no way Germany can rebuild its old influence.

One has to ask if America's policies of racial apartheid, eugenics, monopolistic corporations, corporate militias, and imperial conquest (e.g. Manifest Destiny) could have been prevented. I know this may sound like ASB, but maybe the period between 1945-1992, when the country was partitioned, could have been avoided altogether....

How would this have to do with a second Great War? If anything, a more stable North America would make it more difficult for war to begin.
 
Turtledove. :rolleyes:

He's a good author, but a poor historian. Germany just doesn't have the sheer power to really begin a worldwide war on its own. As I said in my previous post, a minor Weimar Germany and PRB war could end up a worldwide Democracy/Communist War, but I can't see the sort of GotE scenario play out, where Germany ended up pretty much conquering Europe. With the League of Nation mandate territories taken away, the PSB breaking away, and pressure from both the USSR and France (keep in mind that France is technically allied with Germany, but they're by no means friends!), there's no way Germany can rebuild its old influence.

That depends IMHO. Not that I want that a strong and united Germany (OOC: So not true ;) ) but I can't help but wonder what would have happened if the French hadn't pulled off half the German Industry in 23..
 
A second Great War? Totally ASB. The threat of aerial gas bombardment means that no leader would risk the millions of civilian deaths that would inevitably result from another industrial war.
 
A second Great War? Totally ASB. The threat of aerial gas bombardment means that no leader would risk the millions of civilian deaths that would inevitably result from another industrial war.

"The Bomber always gets through?" Oh please. RDF-Guided anti-Air guns will make short meat of any bomber.
 
That depends IMHO. Not that I want that a strong and united Germany (OOC: So not true ;) ) but I can't help but wonder what would have happened if the French hadn't pulled off half the German Industry in 23..

I kind of think that it's ASB for France not to pull off the industry, though. I mean France's mission for the decades following the Great War was pretty much to cripple Germany as much as possible. Think of the African War. France and Britain pressured Germany to join in the war, and what happened when it was over? Germany got nothing, because France refused to let the Hun regain any sort of colonial foothold.
 
I think the single most important thing to do that would increase the chances of a war would be to somehow get rid of all the Balkanization. Germany remaining united is easy, Bavaria was the least probable place to turn red, Yugoslavia a bit harder, USSR the most difficult the keep around, and lastly, the USA breaking up was just a fluke.
 
I kind of think that it's ASB for France not to pull off the industry, though. I mean France's mission for the decades following the Great War was pretty much to cripple Germany as much as possible. Think of the African War. France and Britain pressured Germany to join in the war, and what happened when it was over? Germany got nothing, because France refused to let the Hun regain any sort of colonial foothold.

Not all that ASB. I've recently bought a French (!) book in the store, "November Crisis" is the title. In it several French historians reveal taht the dismemberment of the German Industry was a far from certain thing. The french were bitterly divided about it in the 20s.
 
Not all that ASB. I've recently bought a French (!) book in the store, "November Crisis" is the title. In it several French historians reveal taht the dismemberment of the German Industry was a far from certain thing. The french were bitterly divided about it in the 20s.

Really? To be honest, my knowledge of French history of the time is pretty limited to what my French grandmother has told me. Her opinion is kind of biased, admittedly, since her father was killed by a German sniper in the Great War.
 
"The Bomber always gets through?" Oh please. RDF-Guided anti-Air guns will make short meat of any bomber.

As will most fighters and interceptors. Unescorted bombers are glorified targets. A successful bombing raid would need heavy escort and thorough preparatory raids against known and suspected RDF sites in order to be successful. Otherwise such raids would be disastrous for the attacking force, and at best would be unsustainable due to the horrific casualties that the bombers would inevitably take.

RCAF Fighter Command gets it. Which is why they already have so many of the latest fighters, interceptors and ground attack planes, and why they still want more. The Army Air Defense Corps gets it, which is why they have invested in the Pinetree, Mid_Canada, DEW, Yukon West, and Vinland RDF lines and the Heavy AAA in and around every major city and military base in Canada. It is also why they are investing so much in rockets too. An Anti-Aircraft Guided Rocket would be more accurate than AAA, and is the Air Defense Corps' 'Holy Grail' if they can make it work. RCAF Bomber Command even gets this, which is why they are supporting Fighter Command in their quest to get more long-range escort fighters, and why they want a high-altitude, fast 'Stratosphere Bomber'. We may not have the population or resources of Great Britain or India, but we do have all of those (used to be) American provinces and the ability to tap the 'American mandates' for whatever we need beyond what we can produce ourselves.

However, the politicians don't get it. They want more bombers, and want them cheaper, while cowering in fear of poison gas, phosphorus and jellygas. The socialists see proper defense as a waste, with the resources better spent on creating utopia for their latest favourites. The media engages in wild speculation and fear-mongering, none of which is even remotely based in fact.

And the rumours coming out of the Commonwealth's special 'Project Prometheus' only make things worse, even if they ultimately are a crock of s***. Unlimited, clean, cheap electrical power I can buy, that would be like Prometheus stealing fire from the Gods of Greek mythology. But an explosive that can level even the greatest city in the blink of an eye? That's ridiculous. As ridiculous as Germany rising out of the ashes of the Great War and starting another one not even a generation later.
 
Really? To be honest, my knowledge of French history of the time is pretty limited to what my French grandmother has told me. Her opinion is kind of biased, admittedly, since her father was killed by a German sniper in the Great War.

Yeah. Luckily they gave some of it back to the Germans in the late 1940s. Without German factories producing shells they ( the Allies in this case ) could never have won the African War.

As will most fighters and interceptors. Unescorted bombers are glorified targets. A successful bombing raid would need heavy escort and thorough preparatory raids against known and suspected RDF sites in order to be successful. Otherwise such raids would be disastrous for the attacking force, and at best would be unsustainable due to the horrific casualties that the bombers would inevitably take.

RCAF Fighter Command gets it. Which is why they already have so many of the latest fighters, interceptors and ground attack planes, and why they still want more. The Army Air Defense Corps gets it, which is why they have invested in the Pinetree, Mid_Canada, DEW, Yukon West, and Vinland RDF lines and the Heavy AAA in and around every major city and military base in Canada. It is also why they are investing so much in rockets too. An Anti-Aircraft Guided Rocket would be more accurate than AAA, and is the Air Defense Corps' 'Holy Grail' if they can make it work. RCAF Bomber Command even gets this, which is why they are supporting Fighter Command in their quest to get more long-range escort fighters, and why they want a high-altitude, fast 'Stratosphere Bomber'. We may not have the population or resources of Great Britain or India, but we do have all of those (used to be) American provinces and the ability to tap the 'American mandates' for whatever we need beyond what we can produce ourselves.

However, the politicians don't get it. They want more bombers, and want them cheaper, while cowering in fear of poison gas, phosphorus and jellygas. The socialists see proper defense as a waste, with the resources better spent on creating utopia for their latest favourites. The media engages in wild speculation and fear-mongering, none of which is even remotely based in fact.

And the rumours coming out of the Commonwealth's special 'Project Prometheus' only make things worse, even if they ultimately are a crock of s***. Unlimited, clean, cheap electrical power I can buy, that would be like Prometheus stealing fire from the Gods of Greek mythology. But an explosive that can level even the greatest city in the blink of an eye? That's ridiculous. As ridiculous as Germany rising out of the ashes of the Great War and starting another one not even a generation later.


Agreed. And in case you haven't heard, they ditched the "Superbomb" concept, because they'd never be able to miniaturize the technology enough. (OOC: I hate nukes. )
 
Agreed. And in case you haven't heard, they ditched the "Superbomb" concept, because they'd never be able to miniaturize the technology enough. (OOC: I hate nukes. )

Like I said, the very idea is ridiculous. Though apparently the Admiralty thinks that such a concept is viable. But then it is their money to waste after all.

(OOC, I don't mind nukes all that much. I don't think that they should be banned, nor would I be particularly upset if one were to be used on someone, unless it were to be against Canada or the target happened to be the location that I was in. Then I'd either be pissed off or dead.

A few thousand nuclear weapons in the hands of the superpowers were all that was needed to prevent a Third World War after all. Mind you, a nuclear weapon is a very impressive piece of technology, especially in the eyes of a pyromaniac.)
 
Like I said, the very idea is ridiculous. Though apparently the Admiralty thinks that such a concept is viable. But then it is their money to waste after all.

(OOC, I don't mind nukes all that much. I don't think that they should be banned, nor would I be particularly upset if one were to be used on someone, unless it were to be against Canada or the target happened to be the location that I was in. Then I'd either be pissed off or dead.

A few thousand nuclear weapons in the hands of the superpowers were all that was needed to prevent a Third World War after all. Mind you, a nuclear weapon is a very impressive piece of technology, especially in the eyes of a pyromaniac.)


Do you happen to be one of the misinformed? A mate of mine is stationed with the Admiralty in London, and he thinks that it might be used to provide energy for the newest series of Battleships. (OOC: Carrier was never invented. I don't hate nukes as in I want them banned, but I can't stand them because a whole lot of them were/are aimed at Germany.
 
Do you happen to be one of the misinformed? A mate of mine is stationed with the Admiralty in London, and he thinks that it might be used to provide energy for the newest series of Battleships. (OOC: Carrier was never invented. I don't hate nukes as in I want them banned, but I can't stand them because a whole lot of them were/are aimed at Germany.

The rumours are kind of all over the place, and range from the practical, such as propulsion for a warship, to the absurd, such as a torpedo that can wipe out half an enemy fleet in one go. that one is absurd as a bomb leveling a city, but it must have got the Admiralty's attention if they are wasting that much money trying to either build one or to prove it impossible.

The limitless power is something worth getting. Even if the price is those absurd terrible weapons that the popular press keeps going on about.

Speaking of a waste of money, did you see that new ship that the RCN wants to build? 40,000 tons, no guns heavier than 4in, light armour, and a flat deck, right from bow to stern, with a minimal superstructure offset to the starboard side, the flat deck is meant to allow the ship to carry a few dozen airplanes. Slightly modified Hornet Mk IVs*, in fact.

A ship that is little more than a floating airfield? What will someone come up with next? Airplanes sinking a battleship? That is theoretical, some of the bunker-busting bombs that the Vulcan** bombers can carry could do it, piercing right through the deck armour of a super-dreadnought like it isn't even there, but to hit a moving target from 30,000 feet?

Bomber Command and Coastal Command would both gloat from now until doomsday if they could pull that off. No wonder the Navy wants their own fighters. Seaplanes aren't fast enough, nor are they sufficiently maneuverable, to take on land based fighters and win. And seaplane tenders can't launch their planes fast enough to counter such an attempt, even if RDF gave them sufficient warning. So the Navy, instead of getting the Air Force to cover them with long ranged fighters, (some of the new ones have the range to cover fleets and convoys all the way out to the mid Atlantic...), is going to go with this silly idea.

Even if it works, it is still silly because asking the Air Force for help would be cheaper and just as effective.

OOC: Someone is trying to invent the carrier, but if you've never heard of the concept before, it does seem kind of silly.

Hornet Mk IV, air superiority fighter, resembles a Hawker Typhoon in overall appearance, with the performance of a last generation P-51 Mustang. Produced by Gloster-Supermarine Aviation, Ltd.

Vulcan, a heavy bomber, most closely resembles a B-29 Superfortress, but slightly bigger, and with inline engines, not radials. Has an intercontinental range, but only with 30% of it's maximum payload. Built by, of course, Avro.

I've lived my whole life in places that would be very close to ground zero should a nuclear war happen. Nuclear weapons don't bother me in the slightest, so long as they aren't used. And if they are, I might have about half an hour to either get piss drunk and find some chick to screw or run far enough away that I don't get fried. And then find some chick to screw and some liquor to drink.
 
Speaking of a waste of money, did you see that new ship that the RCN wants to build? 40,000 tons, no guns heavier than 4in, light armour, and a flat deck, right from bow to stern, with a minimal superstructure offset to the starboard side, the flat deck is meant to allow the ship to carry a few dozen airplanes. Slightly modified Hornet Mk IVs*, in fact.

Heh. The RN and the German Navy both tried and failed.
 
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