DBWI: A more "theocratic" United States.

Goldstein

Banned
I'm working in a scenario in which the United States, while still being a democracy (I'm looking for a realistic, mirroring US), has some theocractic elements unthinkable in a well-functioning Western democracy. By "theocratic" I mean:

-Some church holding a very important degree of political influence.

-Evolutionary theory being openly questioned by half of the american population (including educated people), an its presence in the education system being a controversial political issue.

-Atheists being de facto unable to become POTUS.

-Presidents talking openly about their beliefs, even being able to say with a straight face that God has inspired them in important political decisions (and people still voting them)

I hope you get the picture. Is there any plasible way to come up with such a scenario?
 
I'm working in a scenario in which the United States, while still being a democracy (I'm looking for a realistic, mirroring US), has some theocractic elements unthinkable in a well-functioning Western democracy. By "theocratic" I mean:

-Some church holding a very important degree of political influence.

-Evolutionary theory being openly questioned by half of the american population (including educated people), an its presence in the education system being a controversial political issue.

-Atheists being de facto unable to become POTUS.

-Presidents talking openly about their beliefs, even being able to say with a straight face that God has inspired them in important political decisions (and people still voting them)

I hope you get the picture. Is there any plasible way to come up with such a scenario?
1) Some kind of anaolgy to the Anglican Church, mayhap?
2)Not so hard. Come up with a better theory, or shrink the evidence in favor of evolution.
3)Studies show that, OTL, they can't, AFA the electorate is concerned.
4)Umm, McKinley already did that, about the Philippines.
 
This sounds an awful lot like OTL, although no one particular denomination has that much influence. The Southern Baptists might have come close relatively recently.

(IIRC the Catholic League of Decency had a lot of swing on what could be shown in films, but I'm not sure if that was more to do with the government or the purchasing power of Catholics)
 
None of these are especially theocratic, though. Not by today's standards, at least, and some of them would be improvements.

-Some church holding a very important degree of political influence.
Lots of spiritual institutions have important degrees of political influence at varying levels, from the Taoists in Japan to the Confucianists of China, but they are hardly theocratic states. And those are two countries where a single religion has overwhelming dominance: in India, there are more religions than you can count, and they all weild influence.

-Evolutionary theory being openly questioned by half of the american population (including educated people), an its presence in the education system being a controversial political issue.
Considering the traditional European and American habbit of using evolutionary theory to justify anything and everything in the history of colonization and wars across the Brown people across the world, this would certainly be an improvement.

-Atheists being de facto unable to become POTUS.
I'd imagine that this alternate America would turn out to be a lot like OTL: politicians would lie. You'd probably see scandals similar to President Hoover's Crucifix scandal, which he was almost impeached for the crime of being catholic.


-Presidents talking openly about their beliefs, even being able to say with a straight face that God has inspired them in important political decisions (and people still voting them)
Again, not especially theocratic. And no different from our "evolutionary inspiration" that Western leaders like to claim.
 
Please, don't start that rubbish.

Why is it rubbish?

Certain churches like the Catholic Church, the Southern Baptist Convention, and independent "megachurches" like the one belonging to odious characters like John Hagee or Jeremiah Wright have political influence. Hagee is a big pusher of US support for Israel, while Wright is powerful in the South Side of Chicago.

I was under the impression that half of Americans did question the theory of evolution, according to some surveys.

Look at all the crap going around about Obama being really a Muslim and people refusing to vote for him for that reason. And Muslims are fellow monotheists. Plus a big deal was made about some politician being the first open atheist in Congress.

And about Presidents openly telling people God told them to do something, that has happened in the past (McKinley), but I don't think recently. I've heard noises on the left about Bush claiming God told him to invade Iraq, but even if that is true, he did not proclaim it publically.
 
Considering the traditional European and American habbit of using evolutionary theory to justify anything and everything in the history of colonization and wars across the Brown people across the world, this would certainly be an improvement.

And religion was used to justify this stuff as well.

McKinley wanted to "Christianize our little brown brothers" in the Phillippines, never mind the fact that most of them were already Christian, while much Brit imperialism in Africa was "mission creep" from wars against the slave trade inspired by the pleas of Christian missionaries.

(I have no problem whatsoever with exterminating slave traders but that was a cause)
 
OOC: Merry, are you drunk? Or mentally exhausted? This is a DBWI. As in, takes place in another TL where, as indicated by the thread title and OP, there is a much more secular US. None of what you've said has any relevance because it is all OTL, not from this TL.

Why is it rubbish?

Certain churches like the Catholic Church, the Southern Baptist Convention, and independent "megachurches" like the one belonging to odious characters like John Hagee or Jeremiah Wright have political influence. Hagee is a big pusher of US support for Israel, while Wright is powerful in the South Side of Chicago.

I was under the impression that half of Americans did question the theory of evolution, according to some surveys.

Look at all the crap going around about Obama being really a Muslim and people refusing to vote for him for that reason. And Muslims are fellow monotheists. Plus a big deal was made about some politician being the first open atheist in Congress.

And about Presidents openly telling people God told them to do something, that has happened in the past (McKinley), but I don't think recently. I've heard noises on the left about Bush claiming God told him to invade Iraq, but even if that is true, he did not proclaim it publically.
 
OOC: Merry, are you drunk? Or mentally exhausted? This is a DBWI. As in, takes place in another TL where, as indicated by the thread title and OP, there is a much more secular US. None of what you've said has any relevance because it is all OTL, not from this TL.

This is in response to GeorgePatton, who appeared to be criticizing me on political grounds.

However, the initial comment seems to indicate I had forgotten it was a DBWI when I posted.
 
Okay, back to the DBWI.

I think if the American public had been less receptive to Thomas Paine's treatise "The Age of Reason," we might see more politically active churches.

As it was, the book's thesis that revelation is only revelation when it is direct made people more inclined to question their faith and its leaders. This weakened the ability of the clergy to tell their parishioners how to vote, which in turn made forming "Christian" political blocs more difficult.

It also made it more difficult for the Charismatics and Pentecostals, particularly the ones who emphasize the ability of clergy to claim direct communication with God, to seem credible and grow.
 
I'm working in a scenario in which the United States, while still being a democracy (I'm looking for a realistic, mirroring US), has some theocractic elements unthinkable in a well-functioning Western democracy. By "theocratic" I mean:

-Some church holding a very important degree of political influence.

-Evolutionary theory being openly questioned by half of the american population (including educated people), an its presence in the education system being a controversial political issue.

-Atheists being de facto unable to become POTUS.

-Presidents talking openly about their beliefs, even being able to say with a straight face that God has inspired them in important political decisions (and people still voting them)

I hope you get the picture. Is there any plasible way to come up with such a scenario?

Everything the above poster listed is true/recently true about America and believe his/her point is "look how nutty these religious Americans are". If you are trying to make a slam, don't beat around the bush.

Very religious societies and democracy have co-existed for a very long time.
 
Everything the above poster listed is true/recently true about America and believe his/her point is "look how nutty these religious Americans are". If you are trying to make a slam, don't beat around the bush.

Very religious societies and democracy have co-existed for a very long time.

Exactly. The DBWI was presented for one reason only: to start one of AH-com's semi-weekly bashes of religion. Also, none of the items mentioned makes the USA a "theocracy", merely a pluralistic democracy in which religious values inform individual decisions, including those of its elected leaders.
 

ninebucks

Banned
Everything the above poster listed is true/recently true about America and believe his/her point is "look how nutty these religious Americans are". If you are trying to make a slam, don't beat around the bush.

Very religious societies and democracy have co-existed for a very long time.

Hmm? There are the examples Dean gave in Asia, but there are no positive examples of religiosity and democracy coexisting in the West. Its problematic to compare Oriental philosophies to the much more monopolistic Occidental religions, in any case.

I don't think anyone would accuse the American people of being nuttily religious, aside from a few eccentrics, its a fairly rational nation.
 

Goldstein

Banned
Everything the above poster listed is true/recently true about America and believe his/her point is "look how nutty these religious Americans are". If you are trying to make a slam, don't beat around the bush.

Very religious societies and democracy have co-existed for a very long time.

OOC:

1: My point was to envision a a more secular US and how could it turn out like that, no more no less.

2:Wolfstar and Zoomar, your overreaction is unjustified. Do you know what a DBWI is? If you know it, you should have considered the (curiously true) possibility of me not considering the US as theocratic/undemocratic, nor dislinking american society in general terms: In other words, the possibilty of the first poster not representing myself at all. Is TTL's poster who see that things as theocratic, as he lives in a staunchly secular US.

I feel sorry if you have felt offended, but as the idea around this DBWI has failed miserabily, just ignore it. :(
 
Easy. You would have to avoid the government-supported influx of Northeasterners into the Deseret and Dixie lands that led to the dispersion of the homegrown religious climate. Hell, this is what Reconstruction was all about back then in the late 19th century, wasn't it?
 
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