As we all know, Kaiser Wilhelm II abdicated his throne at the end of WW1 but the Kronprinz, his son, became Kaiser of Germany, albeit with truncated powers, so, what if Germany became a Republic after WW1? Would said German republic be more or less stable than the German Empire historically? Could we have seen German democracy fall to extremism as opposed to weathering the crisises that it faced historically?
DBWI: A German Republic?
- Thread starter Whiteshore
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- dbwi germany kaiser kaiserreich ww1
Really tough to say, so many variables here. The Kaiser held on to power by making himself central to preserving what was in reality a republic, and the middle class institutions. The efficient suppression of the Sparticists, the NSDAP, revolts, the economic problems, renegotiating the Versailles Treaty in 1936-38, helped keep Germany on a even keel. His role had parallels to Mustafa Kemal Attaturk in the same decades.
On the negative side he was to wedded to the doctrine of a powerful monarch, which complicated both foreign policy and internal politics.
There are endless historical arguments about 1920s Germany without the activist Kaiser. Predictions of Communists, Facists, a break up of the federal system, all result from this question.
On the negative side he was to wedded to the doctrine of a powerful monarch, which complicated both foreign policy and internal politics.
There are endless historical arguments about 1920s Germany without the activist Kaiser. Predictions of Communists, Facists, a break up of the federal system, all result from this question.
But yet, Wilhelm III did start to relinquish power in the late 1920's. Like the United Kingdom, the German Imperial Republic in 2017 still has a Kaiser, but its powers are more like the British monarch, a symbol of the country instead of actual political power. And he was instrumental in negotiating the Treaty of Basel that completely renegotiated the terms of the Treaty of Versailles in terms more favorable to Germany, which in many ways set the stage for the modern European Economic Union we see now.
One of the things Wilhelm III did was do was negotiate a major land swap in Eastern Europe. Germany got back the land around Danzig (known as Gdansk by the Poles), and Poland took possession of the eastern 1/3 of the former East Prussia, including the port of Krolewiec (known formerly as Koenigsburg). Krolewiec is a major shipping port for goods shipped out of Russia, and in fact even has 1,524 mm rail lines that directly connect back into the Russian Republic (unusual since Poland's rail lines are all 1,435 mm standard gauge elsewhere).
One of the things Wilhelm III did was do was negotiate a major land swap in Eastern Europe. Germany got back the land around Danzig (known as Gdansk by the Poles), and Poland took possession of the eastern 1/3 of the former East Prussia, including the port of Krolewiec (known formerly as Koenigsburg). Krolewiec is a major shipping port for goods shipped out of Russia, and in fact even has 1,524 mm rail lines that directly connect back into the Russian Republic (unusual since Poland's rail lines are all 1,435 mm standard gauge elsewhere).
"As we all know, Kaiser Wilhelm II abdicated his throne at the end of WW1 but the Kronprinz, his son, became Kaiser of Germany, albeit with truncated powers, so, what if Germany became a Republic after WW1?"
What on Earth is "WW1"?
What on Earth is "WW1"?
Could Communists have taken power in Germany? If so, that might have butterflied away the Russian War.
Hard to imagine: the Battle of Berlin, where Germans, British and French fought together against the Communist hordes, was one of the defining moments of European history.
And other butterflies: we wouldn't have seen Japan invading Siberia and Sakhalin, meaning they might have gone for China instead, which could have caused war with America (lucky for both that never happened and their relations improved after the Russian War).
Hard to imagine: the Battle of Berlin, where Germans, British and French fought together against the Communist hordes, was one of the defining moments of European history.
And other butterflies: we wouldn't have seen Japan invading Siberia and Sakhalin, meaning they might have gone for China instead, which could have caused war with America (lucky for both that never happened and their relations improved after the Russian War).
I think it's a typo - probably should say WW3, referring to how the Weltkrieg was referred as the 'Third War for the West' (after the Seven Years' War and the Napoleonic Wars) by Ferguson.
As for what would have happened without the Kaiser, I'm doubtful that a Republic would have survived. Not sure which way it would have fallen - either the left wing, which was quite strong in the war years (and tried to take over in Bavaria and Silesia during 1921, if I remember rightly) would have attempted to launch a Russian-style revolution, or the Vaterlandspartei under Krupp and Tirpitz would have tried a putsch of their own. If it's the Vaterlandspartei, then there may well have been a monarchical restoration. On the other hand, there were some very capable politicians in Germany at the time - the Kaiser's 'Four Great Chancellors' (Erzberger, Stresemann, Drexler, and Bauer) may well have been able to keep such a state running until it established its legitimacy and reintegrated into the Western system.
So, the consensus seems to be that Germany would have fallen into either Fascism or Communism if it became a Republic after the Weltkrieg?
I'd agree with that. The monarchy was a rallying point that no Republic could have been. It meant that there wasn't a feeling of becoming unmoored, there was continuity. Plus any government that started from scratch would have run the risk of being seen as a puppet of the Entente. Not saying there weren't people who said that OTL, but not as many as there would have been with a whole new government.
Probably would have won gone the way of the provisional government in Russia, a Good intentioned liberal government unable to stop the growth of far right and far left threats.
Yea, a weak republic overthrown by either communist or fascist groups is the most likely fate for such a German republic.
My money would be firmly on communism - fascism in Germany would be pretty untenable for several reasons (lack of a unifying religion; strong left-wing movements since the 1880s; reluctance to go back to right-wing autocracy in the style of the Wilhelm II years), whilst communism fits a lot better with the national psyche. Marx and Engels, after all, were German, and the ideas of Ferdinand Lasalle would have united nationalism and socialism into a potentially very strong movement; meanwhile, the Lutherans and Calvinists of the north wouldn't have too much trouble with an ideology preaching hard work in the service of a greater good. It's worth remembering that there were several strong leftist movements in the early 1920s; the Spartakists tried to take over in 1919 and were only stopped by a combination of Freikorps regiments and figures in government like Drexler (if I remember rightly, that was the event that caused him to rise to the political mainstream), whilst the secessionists in Silesia and Bavaria and the Los von Preussen movement in Hanover were other sources of discord. The SDP even managed to enter government under Bauer in 1927 - a sign of how comfortable the German people were with socialism. Fascism, meanwhile - well, it never really took off in Germany at all, but there was that populist ultraconservative group led by Rohm that tried to instigate a military coup in 1925. The North Swabian Democratic Alliance for Prosperity, I think they were called. They never really got anywhere - nobody wanted any of their policies, and their relentless attacks on the rest of the West were very unpopular.
Well, the atheistic nature of communism might be a problem, but I could see a hypothetical communist government downplay the atheism or even declare that Jesus was some sort of proto-communist to buy the support of the Calvinists and Lutherans.
I think you're right - of course, this putsch never got anywhere, and he ended up in prison for breaching the peace and for fraud. Austria would be much more likely to fall into fascism than Germany, in my opinion - they had the air of imperial decline to protest against, and the fall of the Habsburgs meant that the new states had virtually no legitimacy in the eyes of many.
That's definitely a possibility - sort of like the Scandinavian concept of Protestant social democracy, but more overtly ideological. I do wonder who could have led such a communist government, though - maybe Friedrich Ebert, the guy responsible for the unrest in the Ruhr in 1925 and 1926?
OOC: Ebert to me doesn't sound like the guy who would launch a failed commie revolt. I'd go with either Rosa Luxembourg or Ernst Thalmann actually.
OOC: Luxembourg and Thalmann are the obvious choices, but a bit clichéd. I can't see Ebert launching a revolt either; that's why I only said that he was responsible for the unrest. Maybe his assassination sparked something, or he made a speech stirring things up?