DBWI: 2002- The Year in Hell!!!

Look, you are making no real sense here Boondoc. By involving ourselves in these countries affairs, we invite nuclear attack. It's that simple. If there was a time that this might have been avoided, it would have been in 2000-02, before the extreme

And you have a rather selective sense of morality here as well--India, Pakistan and Russia are all at least nominally democratic, and this is what they've chosen. Sure, there is extreme poverty in those countries--but a lot of that is because they've just trashed each others economies. And guess why that's happening. Yeah, its the nukes.

Sure, unemployment rates are high and these nations have widespread suffering. They're probably also going to have to deal with the massive disease outbreaks that have been directly caused by their actions. If you'd like to discuss economic incentives, I suggest you take a hard look at Russia and China, both of which had large trade surpluses with the United States. And did you really think that the USA doling out money to this countries is REALLY going to improve the situation on the ground--no, it would instead go right into the hands of governments you claim act against the interests of their people.

Also, that's not what the Gore Doctrine is at all (indeed, the second post in this thread calls for all-out exodus from these regions). That's the position of the Swiss government.

This peacekeeping effort means putting OUR MEN and WOMEN between a massive pile of nuclear weapons. You also know that we have a draft in place because of large numbers of terrorist incidents--I know I'm certainly not willing to die because the douches want to nuke each other. Since I'd be likely to get drafted to meatshield between these insane regimes, I think you clearly ask too much of me, of my country and of the world.

These insane leaders are going to wipe each other out. The best we can hope to do is to make sure that we aren't wiped out with them. Ethnic bigotry? How about survival? Like I or any country in the world wants to support a pile of murderers because financial assistance might be worth the risk of a nuclear holocaust in America. Sooner or later this whole thing is going to end and its going to be sooner because these nations are only going to radicalize after these actions. No peacekeeping effort would prevail over a massive country determined to kill others and at least tolerant of a nuclear retaliation in response. In all likelihood though, the CIA reports are correct--they are all very, very insane and probably going to press all of the buttons very soon.

OOC: The world is doomed. You can site all the thoughts of doom you want, but citykilling is a step far beyond anything this world has ever seen. I again refer you to On Nuclear War. And it should seem very basic that killing civilians increases a willingness to fight, hence the ineffectiveness of bombing raids in WW2 on Civilian Morale.
 
Look, you are making no real sense here Boondoc. By involving ourselves in these countries affairs, we invite nuclear attack. It's that simple. If there was a time that this might have been avoided, it would have been in 2000-02, before the extreme

And you have a rather selective sense of morality here as well--India, Pakistan and Russia are all at least nominally democratic, and this is what they've chosen. Sure, there is extreme poverty in those countries--but a lot of that is because they've just trashed each others economies. And guess why that's happening. Yeah, its the nukes.

Sure, unemployment rates are high and these nations have widespread suffering. They're probably also going to have to deal with the massive disease outbreaks that have been directly caused by their actions. If you'd like to discuss economic incentives, I suggest you take a hard look at Russia and China, both of which had large trade surpluses with the United States. And did you really think that the USA doling out money to this countries is REALLY going to improve the situation on the ground--no, it would instead go right into the hands of governments you claim act against the interests of their people.

Also, that's not what the Gore Doctrine is at all (indeed, the second post in this thread calls for all-out exodus from these regions). That's the position of the Swiss government.

This peacekeeping effort means putting OUR MEN and WOMEN between a massive pile of nuclear weapons. You also know that we have a draft in place because of large numbers of terrorist incidents--I know I'm certainly not willing to die because the douches want to nuke each other. Since I'd be likely to get drafted to meatshield between these insane regimes, I think you clearly ask too much of me, of my country and of the world.

These insane leaders are going to wipe each other out. The best we can hope to do is to make sure that we aren't wiped out with them. Ethnic bigotry? How about survival? Like I or any country in the world wants to support a pile of murderers because financial assistance might be worth the risk of a nuclear holocaust in America. Sooner or later this whole thing is going to end and its going to be sooner because these nations are only going to radicalize after these actions. No peacekeeping effort would prevail over a massive country determined to kill others and at least tolerant of a nuclear retaliation in response. In all likelihood though, the CIA reports are correct--they are all very, very insane and probably going to press all of the buttons very soon.

OOC: The world is doomed. You can site all the thoughts of doom you want, but citykilling is a step far beyond anything this world has ever seen. I again refer you to On Nuclear War. And it should seem very basic that killing civilians increases a willingness to fight, hence the ineffectiveness of bombing raids in WW2 on Civilian Morale.
The problem with your analysis is that it fails to take into account the vast amount of work that has actually been accomplished since the initial "Year in Hell" (2002). With the recent assistance of NATO allies in the form of the Ukraine, Lithuania, Estonia, and Latvia, the flow of Russian refugees have been slowly but safely brought into the fold of European and American society.

As for the democracies, you forget that the government of Wang Jiangsheng was an elected government that came to power in 1991, after the pro-democracy movement gained a steady foothold. What you have forgotten in the need to paint Eurasia as a dark continent of "failed states", you have forgotten that Wang's government was not the initiator of nuclear war. It was the neo-fascist government of Aleksandr Barkashov which continuously made territorial claims, even towards Alaska, which started the conflict...

As for the trade supluses by Russia, just remember that the products where those trade surpluses came from. They came from oil, aluminum and nuclear fuel material, not exactly growth industries, and often controlled by the corrupt oligarchies in Moscow and St. Petersburg. For Russia to survive, and to prevent a rise of further totalitarian regimes, you have to insure that the latest of generation of 18-34 youth, especially young men are able to obtain jobs with a living wage.

OOC: I would counter by pointing to the book The Pentagon's New Map by Thomas Barnett, which concludes that the internal desires for trade and commerce, coupled with political action, would serve to create an atmosphere of stability on the Eurasian continent. While there is certainly going to be violence and civil unrest, a concerted effort to maintain the peace can serve to prevent the rise of violence in the region. Some recent examples of the recent success would be Serbia, Croatia, Albania, et al.
 
Recently it was announced that Amy Winehouse, Coldplay, the Dave Matthew's Band, Jewel, and a recently reunited Police (featuring Sting) will be launching "Earth Tour 2009" this coming February in New York's Central Park, with a simulcast event Wimbledon Stadium in London, to kickoff efforts to entertain the troops and to raise money for the United Nations Humanitarian Relief Fund. Will anyone be buying tickets?
 
No thanks, I have no wish to be beaten up by some Turner Diaries-toting Patriot Youth.
Something tells me that those right-wing nutcases will be outnumbered by the roadies for Aerosmith. The Patriot Youth, contrary to what Pat Buchanan and Alan Keyes will tell you, are neither "patriotic" nor exceptionally "young". According to www.dailykos.com the group is just more of those nutcases who think American is controlled by a "Zionist Overlord Government (ZOG)"....
 
I hope not. It's just that if any right-wing youths appear, leftist youths are soon to follow, and I have no intention on getting caught in the crossfire between YPs and the Red-Green-Black Brigade.

Why can't kids fight about something simple these days, like music or fashion styles? I heard in Mexico juggalos are persecuting ravers. Maybe a good draft will sort them all out.
 
I hope not. It's just that if any right-wing youths appear, leftist youths are soon to follow, and I have no intention on getting caught in the crossfire between YPs and the Red-Green-Black Brigade.

Why can't kids fight about something simple these days, like music or fashion styles? I heard in Mexico juggalos are persecuting ravers. Maybe a good draft will sort them all out.
Call me nostalgic, but I certainly remember the "Neo-Swing " Movement of the 1990s, which made stars of Lavay Smith and the Hot Skillet Lickers, Big Bad Voodoo Daddy, the Squirrel Nut Zippers, and the Brian Setzer Orchestra. At least they lasted longer than those "boy-bands" like O-Town and N'Synch....

OOC: A hint that even pop culture can be altered for the ATL....
 
Did you hear? Homeland Security is just announcing they caught wind of a plot by two dumb-ass Cal students to bomb a Paul fundraiser in the name of "crushing the corporatist enablers." They were going to do it on the 29th, presumably because 9 + 11 for 9/11 added to 9, the New Workers' Shibboleth (We work, we learn, we fight, we shall survive). This is stupid- not only will this make Kennedy look bad, but Paul is on their side. He wants to repeal the Pacific Rim Free Trade Pact, he wants to cut corporate welfare, he wants to withdraw all American troops from abroad! I'm tired of Counter-Globalists.
 
The problem with the Counter-globalists, whether they are following the writings of Noam Chomsky, Pat Buchanan, or Lyndon LaRouche is that they fail to understand that withdrawing from the world stage financially or politically will only serve to make the world more dangerous. John F. Kennedy Jr. should make a point at his rally in St. Louis, MO to condemn the rise of extremism on both sides of the aisle. Also it would be nice if the leaders of the European Union (EU) and NATO were able to contribute more to the relief efforts. Prime Minister David Cameron (UK) has said that he would be helping the Administration out, it would be nice if he could actually deliver on his promises....
 
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