DBRP: Sould we give the Zionists a chance?

Zionism is basically just Jewish nationalism, started by Theodore Herzl in the late 19th Century, it argues for a small strip of land in Palestine for the Jews, who are a homeless people.
"Homeless people", my foot. Why should every single ethnic group get their own little nation to themselves? Jews aren't even an oppressed minority in the countries where most of them live (i.e. the Ottomans, the USA, Germany) - if they were getting enslaved and genocided I could understand, but in the case of the Jews it's nothing but irredentism at its worst.

P.S. Yes, I am well aware of the existence of anti-Judeanism. But I don't think the violence of radical Christian hicks is enough to warrant a Jewish nation.

(OOC: "Anti-Judeanism" = "Anti-Semitism" ITTL)

Well, not a full state of course, that's what the terrorists want, just a semi-autonomous strip of land in Palestine, still part of the Empire and subject to Istanbul but with its own autonomous Jewish ruling body. It would be something like the existing millet system + some more autonomy + land.
Why would you want segregation? The Ottoman Empire has been on a gradual course of integration for the past fifty years, with people of all races beginning to live in all corners of the empire rather than sticking to their own little enclaves, so why would you want to reverse that trend?
 
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"Homeless people", my foot. Why should every single ethnic group get their own little nation to themselves? Jews aren't even an oppressed minority in the countries where most of them live (i.e. the Ottomans, the USA, Germany) - if they were getting enslaved and genocided I could understand, but in the case of the Jews it's nothing but irredentism at its worst.

P.S. Yes, I am well aware of the existence of anti-Judeanism. But I don't think the violence of radical Christian hicks is enough to warrant a Jewish nation.

(OOC: "Anti-Judeanism" = "Anti-Semitism" ITTL)

Why would you want segregation? The Ottoman Empire has been on a gradual course of integration for the past fifty years, with people of all races beginning to live in all corners of the empire rather than sticking to their own little enclaves, so why would you want to reverse that trend?

If no one comes up with a better argument for Zionism, I would have to say that I agree with fully you. I started this thread, undecided about this issue but your point and the points of others about this convinced me. Juedophobia, which is the main reason Herzl created Zionism is no longer existent (outside the South of course but even there, it is being eradicated), and Jews have done and continue to do well in the Gentile societies they live in. Also, you right about the diversity of the OE, it is a great thing, it has built modern Ottomania and it should be preserved.

OOC: I think the terms we've coined are much smarter than OTL's anti-semitism, I mean Semite doesn't mean Jew, it can mean Arab or any other Semitic people.

@ Demosthenes
After going through the argumentative conversation we had, I would just like to add a few things. The first point you brought up, the moral definition of "terrorism" is an entirely different and an infinitely more serious "realworld" issue that should not be discussed here but rather in Chat.

The second point you brought up and discussed with me which I could summarize as a question was "Is the possibility of Irgun eventually killing civillians in an ATL ASB?" I hope that answering these two questions of mine (just in your head of course, don't have to post the answers, unless you want to) and reading Ibn Warraq's very logical and reasonable statement can enlighten you.

In this TL, the Ottomans have survived and are in firm control of Palestine, that chance that Zionism had of Israel coming into existence IOTL is reduced to a flat out zero ITTL.

Don't you think that under these desperate circumstances, maybe, just MAYBE, even the noble Irgun would resort to killing civilians to achieve their now almost impossible goal or was the essence of that organization so noble and pure that even in the remotest of alternate timelines, such a possibility would always fall into the realm of the ASB's?

As for those "religious and moral" obligations, I'm not sure what you mean as Zionism is a secular ideology and even if these ATL Zionists were practicing Jews, looking at some of the actions of today's Israeli government, I'm not really sure "religious and moral obligations" would get in the way of accomplishing a political goal, what more ITTL?
(By "actions of today's Israeli government" I mean the instances of abuse by the IDF in the occupied territories.)
Off topic for a moment:

It is perfectly permissable to call the Irgun a terrorist group. They certainly weren't as rutheless as the PLO, Hezbollah, or any of the modern Arab or Muslim terrorist groups but they certainly engaged in activity that's labeled terrorist. Also, let's not forget the massacre at Dir Yassin.

Moreover in an ATL, there's no reason to think they wouldn't be considerably more rutheless.
 
Juedophobia, which is the main reason Herzl created Zionism is no longer existent (outside the South of course but even there, it is being eradicated),
Well, there is quite a bit of Judeophobia in parts of rural Germany too. But again, nowhere near the level there was in the early 20th Century.
 
Ibn is exactly right in his analysis. If one tiny minority in the Ottoman Empire can demand a territory for its very own, and not even considering actual demographic facts on the ground, where will it end?

This is clearly simply another effort on the part of the British to regain their lost position in the Middle East. I say that if London wants a Jewish homeland so badly, put one in around Yorkshire.:D
 
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