DBAHC: Screw Spain

[AltoRegnant]

OTL, Spain has long been the greatest power of Europe. Despite being forged in the fires of la reconquista, it maintained the relative religious tolerance that muslim iberia held. This gave it the edge in manpower to compete with the other big boys, and it established strong loyalty to the king and state, as if Spain fell than the Jewish and muslim populations could face expulsion or worse.
This became very important after columbus came back from the new world. The diverse and high population meant Spain was close to the forefront of new economic policies and avoided the perils of inflation.
However, the seven years war was... rough. Spain had a strong army and stronger navy, but Spain's colonies struggled, and that created resentment in the more populous ones. Mexico's rebellion coupled with the french revolution in quick succession showed the empire needed to make serious reforms, even if they didn't fall to Napoleon like the other great powers.

Spain and Britain then spent the next century competing, with America and Russia switching alliances over the period. Eventually it came to a head during the Grande Guera over who owned the Suez Canal: Spanish Arabia or British Egypt.

Eventually Spain stood on top of the world undisputed.

But is there any way we could prevent Spain's rise?

Ooc: religious tolerance was an on/off policy during the reconquista so I dont think it's impossible, and obviously after that the Hapsburgs don't bankrupt Spain

 

[kasumigenx]

Actually, have Spain not cede Luzon in the 7 years war to Britain, that land remained majorly hindu even in the present even if they have a 30% Anglican Population and 20 % Catholic population and continue the inquisition, Spain acquired the Spice Islands from the Dutch, North Borneo and gained Gibraltar as well.

 

[M79]

Have them involved in more wars instead of reinvesting their American gold into their economy and infrastructure. While the 16th century was bloody the rapid resolution of troubles in the Netherlands and Italy could have drug out for much longer. Or have former Portugal separate and break the Union. Or both.

 

[JMT]

Have Portugal seperate and have Spain lose the Vancouver War to the Anglo-American alliance? If America gets hold of the gold in Las Californias...

 

[Vae Victus]

Prevent the creation of Franco-Iberian Union. I know u like using the quaint term of Spain but the only reason she's a superpower is from the French lands and infusion of elite French military survivors who were sent to the New World to reestablish royal authority. The Scourge of Napoleon, annihilation of the French Bourbons, basically left Spain as the strongest Europeon power left standing and with a strong claim to press on France with the death of The Ogre.

I mean Napoleon literally went all Genghis Khan on continental Europe. Achieving 10 to 1 casualty ratios on the British, Austrians, Prussians, Russians, Italians etc, and utterly ruined the demographics of every state that dared stand up to him, for generations, except for Spain who wisely hid behind the god like natural defenses of the Pyrenees. Napoleon couldnt really get at Spain and the UK due to natural barriers and thus let those 2 states outlast everyone else, to pick up the pieces when eventually the French luck ran out when Napoleon ate a freak cannonball. With his death, the Cult of Personality Napoleon created, brought the French Empire crashing down with all the surviving Marshals desperate for a way out, with all of Europe itching to lynch them for their part in depopulating Europe. Spain's powerful position post Scourge and INSANE gambit of an offer to absorb France AND the Marshals accepting is what truly cemented the Franco-Iberian as the pre-eminent Superpower ever since.

Stop the Union from being created in the first place, hell dont let The Ogre be the fusion hate child of Genghis Khan/Attila and wiping out most of Europe, and i bet other nations would have risen from the ashes of that dark era to properly challenge Union and the UK in carving up the world. I bet the HRE woulda been something great, they have so many natural resources to jumpstart industrialization and a massively high birth rate. Give em a few million more Germanic/Prussian babies in the early 1800s and who knows what they could do.

Now preventing all those French Marshals and their hyper elite troops/bodyguards from going to the New World and reshaping it, would be hella interesting. I mean they couldnt stick around in Europe and had to go, and it was only natural while being far away from Union authority that they started going all Cortez and carving out their own petty fiefdoms.

 

[AltoRegnant]

Prevent the creation of Franco-Iberian Union. I know u like using the quaint term of Spain but the only reason she's a superpower is from the French lands and infusion of elite French military survivors who were sent to the New World to reestablish royal authority. The Scourge of Napoleon, annihilation of the French Bourbons, basically left Spain as the strongest Europeon power left standing and with a strong claim to press on France with the death of The Ogre.

I mean Napoleon literally went all Genghis Khan on continental Europe. Achieving 10 to 1 casualty ratios on the British, Austrians, Prussians, Russians, Italians etc, and utterly ruined the demographics of every state that dared stand up to him, for generations, except for Spain who wisely hid behind the god like natural defenses of the Pyrenees. Napoleon couldnt really get at Spain and the UK due to natural barriers and thus let those 2 states outlast everyone else, to pick up the pieces when eventually the French luck ran out when Napoleon ate a freak cannonball. With his death, the Cult of Personality Napoleon created, brought the French Empire crashing down with all the surviving Marshals desperate for a way out, with all of Europe itching to lynch them for their part in depopulating Europe. Spain's powerful position post Scourge and INSANE gambit of an offer to absorb France AND the Marshals accepting is what truly cemented the Franco-Iberian as the pre-eminent Superpower ever since.

Stop the Union from being created in the first place, hell dont let The Ogre be the fusion hate child of Genghis Khan/Attila and wiping out most of Europe, and i bet other nations would have risen from the ashes of that dark era to properly challenge Union and the UK in carving up the world. I bet the HRE woulda been something great, they have so many natural resources to jumpstart industrialization and a massively high birth rate. Give em a few million more Germanic/Prussian babies in the early 1800s and who knows what they could do.

Now preventing all those French Marshals and their hyper elite troops/bodyguards from going to the New World and reshaping it, would be hella interesting. I mean they couldnt stick around in Europe and had to go, and it was only natural while being far away from Union authority that they started going all Cortez and carving out their own petty fiefdoms.

Ooc: sweet jesus the idea of that is terrifying and I love it

Ic: it didn't really last tho. The king of Spain had France for only twentyish years before giving the kingdom to a second son due to administrative issues-- after taking the carribean islands france held of course. Did the military officers help Spain reform into a superpower? Yea. But I think Spain would've been fine in the long run without its brief tenure as the western roman empire

 

[Vae Victus]

OOC: Yea the Franco-Iberian Union is just way too OP and cuts off too much fun

IC: The French Marshals and their retinues exiled to the New World are one of the most amazing periods in history IMO. Without Davout leading the expedition to crush aspiring rebels and without Soult/Bernadotte's able administration of the New World colonies, not a chance in hell would Spain (ill drop the Union for now for simplicity) be able to hold on. Then you have Moreau being named CinC of the fledgling US Republic armed forces and leading it very ably allowing them to fend off Spanish and UK probes and maintaining their borders. Ooh and dont forget Murat's very insane escape and full of pomp and fanfare defection to the USA, after he pissed off Davout enough to be executed for his recklessness. For christ sake, how much fame and charisma must Murat had in order to convince his entire command to ignore orders to arrest him AND defect with him en masse. Davout damn near ordered a full scale invasion to get the traitor, but was limited to the probes that the US was able to push back.

The Texan War of Independence was practically a high school reunion of familiar names from the Scourge Era as the young US fought it out with Colonial Spain, where raw militias commanded by grizzled military leaders, led to some of the most fascinating battles ever.

Ooof and all the crazyass shit the Marshals got up to south of Mexico is just too goddamn insane to talk about.

 

[Pelranius]

Not have King Philip standardize laws, regulations and taxations across Spain in 1530?

Or have Sinan Reis, Sayyida al Hurra and the Nasrid brothers not take command of and shape the Spanish Navy in the first half of the 16th century. Their reforms were probably the most significant factor in the success of the Armada against the English.

 

[AltoRegnant]

OOC: Yea the Franco-Iberian Union is just way too OP and cuts off too much fun

IC: The French Marshals and their retinues exiled to the New World are one of the most amazing periods in history IMO. Without Davout leading the expedition to crush aspiring rebels and without Soult/Bernadotte's able administration of the New World colonies, not a chance in hell would Spain (ill drop the Union for now for simplicity) be able to hold on. Then you have Moreau being named CinC of the fledgling US Republic armed forces and leading it very ably allowing them to fend off Spanish and UK probes and maintaining their borders. Ooh and dont forget Murat's very insane escape and full of pomp and fanfare defection to the USA, after he pissed off Davout enough to be executed for his recklessness. For christ sake, how much fame and charisma must Murat had in order to convince his entire command to ignore orders to arrest him AND defect with him en masse.

Murat was actually promised land in greater texas and negotiated for it to apply to his men should they defect as well.

But I never got the idea that the french reformers were the only way to save Spain's hold on the new world. The Spanish colonies, while bigger and more populous than the other powers had, were also administered directly and the elites were regularly invited to Madrid for the king (especially Philip II Bourbon*) to hear their complaints. Hell, they usually had natives there.

Point being, the spanish administration was decent. The reforms were mostly social and what not, like ending the defacto race hierarchy that had popped up in colombia over the last decades.

Ooc: the Hapsburgs not bankrupting it was a more tounge in cheek way of saying they dont get spain but since the war of spanish succession had a provision of Spain and france not Uniting (which they briefly did ttl) I just had the bourbons inherit ot sooner, before the Anglo-Scottish personal union when someone mentioned Philip ii

 

[M79]

The Texan War of Independence was practically a high school reunion of familiar names from the Scourge Era as the young US fought it out with Colonial Spain, where raw militias commanded by grizzled military leaders, led to some of the most fascinating battles ever.

Ooof and all the crazyass shit the Marshals got up to south of Mexico is just too goddamn insane to talk about.

The Battle of San Antonio was especially interesting - no one expected the Franco-Mexican ('FraMex') camel-based cavalry much less that they could keep up with, or in some cases outpace, traditional horse cavalry. Then the improved Hall Rifles showed up on the Texan side while the French Texans ('Frexans') brought in the Colt 'Paterswords'. Those 10" blades at the end of the revolvers acted like integrated bayonets but understandably led to some innovative field modifications for trigger guards/hand guards.

 

[Bubbykins]

Why not just have them be less tolerant? It happened multiple times during the Reconquista, after all.

 

[IanSupremo]

The British hard-on for industrialization did wonders to jump start the modern Maharlikan Empire’s near hegemonic control over the Far East. I mean, our strategic position helped too. Better than being the biggest Spanish fortress/cash cow/way station in the Far East.