DBAHC: Qing holds onto China into the 20th Century?

OCC Pretty much, and its pretty realistic for russia to have evolved into some thing really freaking horrible if a few changes had gone one way or another.OCC

OOC: I mean, Russia did evolve into something really freaking horrible in OTL, so really only a few changes are needed.
 

Dorozhand

Banned
OOC: I mean, Russia did evolve into something really freaking horrible in OTL, so really only a few changes are needed.

OOC: A bad ruler and a bad harvest aren't the most horrible things in the world. The USSR in general took a country in smoldering ruins and built a superpower, people often forget how many lived who would otherwise have died because of the planned economy and the brief period of workers' socialism.
 
OOC: A bad ruler and a bad harvest aren't the most horrible things in the world. The USSR in general took a country in smoldering ruins and built a superpower, people often forget how many lived who would otherwise have died because of the planned economy and the brief period of workers' socialism.

OOC: I don't know, Stalin is at least in the top five worst things in the world. Also, pretty sure denying Holodomor is an offense of some kind here.
 

Dorozhand

Banned
OOC: I don't know, Stalin is at least in the top five worst things in the world. Also, pretty sure denying Holodomor is an offense of some kind here.

OOC: didn't deny it. Stalin was terrible, and he was the worst thing that could possibly happen to the USSR. However, I think it is incorrect to characterize the whole of Russia or the USSR as having "turned into" Stalin
 
OOC: didn't deny it. Stalin was terrible, and he was the worst thing that could possibly happen to the USSR. However, I think it is incorrect to characterize the whole of Russia or the USSR as having "turned into" Stalin

OOC: Fair enough on that, it just sounded like you were going full on Stapologist for a moment there. In any case, to discuss Soviet industrialization would be to majorly derail the thread.
 

Dorozhand

Banned
There could possibly have been a later strong Qing ruler that would institute some measure of reform and economic and military revitalization like Mahmud II with the New Model Army, Abdulmecid with Tanzimat and Bayezid III with the parliamentary constitution in the Ottoman Empire before the Russian invasion and occupation. The Jianshun Emperor filled the first two roles with modernization on Chinese terms while the Yongtai Emperor instituted the Imperial Council. Could Qing have produced a similar figure to stabilize their rule?
 
There could possibly have been a later strong Qing ruler that would institute some measure of reform and economic and military revitalization like Mahmud II with the New Model Army, Abdulmecid with Tanzimat and Bayezid III with the parliamentary constitution in the Ottoman Empire before the Russian invasion and occupation. The Jianshun Emperor filled the first two roles with modernization on Chinese terms while the Yongtai Emperor instituted the Imperial Council. Could Qing have produced a similar figure to stabilize their rule?
No.Nationalism was clearly become a thing.It's a matter of when and how.Once it did,the Qing's screwed.Unlike the Turks,the Manchus were literally a minority group.
 
There could possibly have been a later strong Qing ruler that would institute some measure of reform and economic and military revitalization like Mahmud II with the New Model Army, Abdulmecid with Tanzimat and Bayezid III with the parliamentary constitution in the Ottoman Empire before the Russian invasion and occupation. The Jianshun Emperor filled the first two roles with modernization on Chinese terms while the Yongtai Emperor instituted the Imperial Council. Could Qing have produced a similar figure to stabilize their rule?

If the Qing had adopted democracy it would have only accelerated their demise. Think about it; the Ottomans were unable to respond to the Russians precisely because they were a democracy. It is a testament to our status as the Master Race that we were able to beat the Russians in the Great War while being a democracy.
 

Dorozhand

Banned
One thing that isn't often speculated is a figure other than Liang becoming the figurehead of the rebellion. There were numerous bandit armies and even small kingdoms that were declared and which operated during the general phase of the black turban disorder. Most threw in their lot with the Jianshun Emperor after Great Cai was declared but some had to be exterminated, like Ning Shaofeng's Great Chen state that was a major force in guangdong, or the Great Shu regime that was founded by Wang Liao in Sichuan. Great Cai won out primarily due to luck in geography, being a massive central and northern revolt that blocked Qing access to the south and presented a far more formidable threat to Beijing, while the ancient capitals of Chang'an, Luoyang, and Kaifeng practically fell right in the Jianshun Emperor's lap (incidentally resulting in the emperor setting up his permanent seat in Luoyang and revitalizing the whole central region)

What if Liang's rebellion hadn't been as strong and Chen or Shu had been the major unifiers of Chinese resistance, resulting in Qing having a better hold on the north and a better defensive position, and out of this a Northern and Southern Dynasties period begins? Would the Europeans have taken a side, or perhaps even played both against each other? Would modernization actually have accelerated due to constant war on the frontiers? How would the Japanese have reacted to this?
 
Top