DBAHC: Prevent Novgorodian Rus'

With a POD after 1150, prevent Novgorod from consolidating power in the north and later forcing most of former Kievan Rus' into a new confederation with him at the helm.
But please refrain from using a certain baltic pagan tribe escaping the Crusaders wrath, conquering most of Rus', forming a medieval superpower by installing their monarch in Poland and later spreading their dynasty further west. This TL belongs in ASB.
 
Hmm... well, Temujin the Great was sweeping through the east in the early thirteenth century. Keep him from dying at the Battle of Samarkand and his armies stay on the warpath. Then it's pretty simple for them to overrun the Kievan states from the east, and at that point it's anyone's guess who comes out on top when Temujin's empire collapses. His grandson Batu was already making some inroads in the eastern Rus at the time, so it's not too far fetched.
 
Would they go so far north from the steppes though? It may leave Novgorod the only untouched principality.
 
Hey, hey, buddy. I get that you don't like my TL, but you don't have to go around slandering it in other threads. I have put a lot of effort into making the rise of Lettgallia a plausible situation and many people (the best people, believe me) agree.
 
Hey, hey, buddy. I get that you don't like my TL, but you don't have to go around slandering it in other threads. I have put a lot of effort into making the rise of Lettgallia a plausible situation and many people (the best people, believe me) agree.
I enjoyed your TL a lot, it's just nowdays it comes up every single time one tries to disscuss medieval eastern europe. I just don't want the thread to be derailed into another 50 pages long "Was Lettgallia possible" argument.
 
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Fair enough, I've seen a few odd Balticwanks after mine. One wanked the Lithuanians :rolleyes: you'd need a major Teuton-screw to keep them from being Germanized IMO.

On that note, strengthening the Poles would probably curb Novgorodian expansion. The former's slow collapse to the Teutons was very luck-dependent and could have been averted with quite a few PoDs.
 
How about simple dynastic squabbles? Every generation, have a couple of plausible claimants to Novgorod, who drag in the other Rus' states to fight their wars for them. Political chaos, wrecked every so often by steppe migrations, and eventually some slightly more stable nations (Sweden; any or all of the Turks; Hungary; whoever) will start to get involved in the region, maybe taking parts of the Kievan lands or the Baltic coast (sorry, Letts...) as colonies. Once you've got foreign interference in the region, then it'll stay politically divided - it's in nobody's interest to have one massive state emerging there.
 
Heh, you guys think in this world the Turks could have taken Constantinople? Their expansion into the Haemics* was pretty significant in the 1300s and if the Poles hadn't sent their entire army the Salonican Crusade could have plausibly lost. I'm assuming if Novgorod was weaker the Poles wouldn't have felt the need to make a show of strength to intimidate the East in general

*OOC: Balkans
 
I like that idea, actually - I was thinking about a Turk nation where it is today, around the Caucasus and the east of Anatolia, but that could happen. Then again, wouldn't other European powers help out instead of the Poles?
 
The Turks could have tried for the whole Rûm title again instead of ruling Persia under the Artuqids in the early modern era, then--I suppose Turks and Persians wouldn't despise each other in this world, then!
 
Presumably not - if anything, they'd be natural allies, with some quite clear spheres of influence and shared interests in the south of the Rus' lands. A Turkish Rûm is potentially possible (though religion would complicate any claim of the Imperial title), but it has sort of been done to death on this site - the one where they ended up ruling all the way to the gates of Vienna was particularly egregious.
 
Fair enough, I've seen a few odd Balticwanks after mine. One wanked the Lithuanians :rolleyes: you'd need a major Teuton-screw to keep them from being Germanized IMO.

On that note, strengthening the Poles would probably curb Novgorodian expansion. The former's slow collapse to the Teutons was very luck-dependent and could have been averted with quite a few PoDs.

Wow, that would really muck up Polish history. Without the Ascanians conquering Poland and introducing many Teutonic settlers to help jump start Poland's urban economy, you are going to have a very different country. I mean, the ruling house had heavily Polonized within three generations, especially after the ascension of Dytryk I when the capitol was moved back to Krakow, but they never lost their westward leaning outlook. With no Ascanian conquest, would Poland be as involved with the western markets and economy?
 
Presumably not - if anything, they'd be natural allies, with some quite clear spheres of influence and shared interests in the south of the Rus' lands. A Turkish Rûm is potentially possible (though religion would complicate any claim of the Imperial title), but it has sort of been done to death on this site - the one where they ended up ruling all the way to the gates of Vienna was particularly egregious.

Alright, but I maintain that OTL was a bit of a Serbia wank. The Despotate of Thessaly was never going to survive long after the Crusade set it up--it was just luck the Serbs snapped it up first, and from there their whole "Empire of Serbs and Greeks" concept began gaining steam. If you had asked a Greek or Serb peasant of 1300, or even 1350, if they thought the Serbian Empire would encompass Constantinople and western Anatolia they would have laughed in your face. The Muslim Turks could very well have held on to the Anatolian plateau if it weren't for the conversion of the Karamanids and their horse archers.

And oh, geez, The Gunpowder Caliphate is the most blatant wank I have read on this site. Magic "Ottomans" wipe out the Mamluks! Magic "Ottomans" hold the Haemics for centuries! Ugh.

Wow, that would really muck up Polish history. Without the Ascanians conquering Poland and introducing many Teutonic settlers to help jump start Poland's urban economy, you are going to have a very different country. I mean, the ruling house had heavily Polonized within three generations, especially after the ascension of Dytryk I when the capitol was moved back to Krakow, but they never lost their westward leaning outlook. With no Ascanian conquest, would Poland be as involved with the western markets and economy?

You're right, Poland would be unrecognizable. I suspect it might end up like Ruthenia (southern Novgorod) did, with serfdom entrenched, powerful nobles, and an Eastern focus. It certainly wouldn't have been the powerful military and dynastic player of OTL--no Game of Thrones,* most likely! Austria would've "gotten away" with more dynastic shenanigans too, probably--no Franco-Polish alliance in the War of the Hungarian Succession, for instance.

*OOC: The Game of Thrones was a protracted struggle for dominance in the various petty states of the HRE between the Habsburgs and Ascanians through marriage
 
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Alright, but I maintain that OTL was a bit of a Serbia wank. The Despotate of Thessaly was never going to survive long after the Crusade set it up--it was just luck the Serbs snapped it up first, and from there their whole "Empire of Serbs and Greeks" concept began gaining steam. If you had asked a Greek or Serb peasant of 1300, or even 1350, if they thought the Serbian Empire would encompass Constantinople and western Anatolia they would have laughed in your face. The Muslim Turks could very well have held on to the Anatolian plateau if it weren't for the conversion of the Karamanids and their horse archers.

Some recognition of Emperor Lazar/Lazarus is also necessary - international politics gave him the opportunity, but it required great military and diplomatic skill to turn the Serbian Empire from a purely Haemic power to the Mediterranean superpower it became. Actually, to be honest, the Serbs were blessed with a long line of skillful rulers - the Dushanovics and Lazarevics knew their stuff (at least up until Konstantin II in the 1500s...)

And oh, geez, The Gunpowder Caliphate is the most blatant wank I have read on this site. Magic "Ottomans" wipe out the Mamluks! Magic "Ottomans" hold the Haemics for centuries! Ugh.

Magic Ottomans take over Constantinople and then hold off a pan-European coalition! I was surprised at the author's restraint, actually - I thought they'd just go for broke and have Ottoman colonies in the new world, the rate at which they were outstripping every other nation. The sheer incompetence of some of their leaders is pretty astounding, too - but I don't think the author noticed, and so just kept letting them take over every Eastern European state they wanted...
 

Deleted member 97083

If another city other than Novgorod or Kiev took power, which city might it be?

Probably the Golden Ring cities, right? Yaroslavl, Rostov, Vladimir, Suzdal?

But definitely not Moscow.
 
Some recognition of Emperor Lazar/Lazarus is also necessary - international politics gave him the opportunity, but it required great military and diplomatic skill to turn the Serbian Empire from a purely Haemic power to the Mediterranean superpower it became. Actually, to be honest, the Serbs were blessed with a long line of skillful rulers - the Dushanovics and Lazarevics knew their stuff (at least up until Konstantin II in the 1500s...)


The Serbs pulled off some incredible military and diplomatic coups to rise to glory (if only they could achieve some of that competence today, amirite)

And yeah, Konstantin II wasn't called "the Imbecile" for nothing! His incompetence in the Banatine War was astounding, and the "loony Lazarevic" memes we have here started from jokes about him personally! I'm almost glad the Serbs had the Century of Chaos they did starting with his rule; it was horrific, but comical in hindsight.

Magic Ottomans take over Constantinople and then hold off a pan-European coalition! I was surprised at the author's restraint, actually - I thought they'd just go for broke and have Ottoman colonies in the new world, the rate at which they were outstripping every other nation. The sheer incompetence of some of their leaders is pretty astounding, too - but I don't think the author noticed, and so just kept letting them take over every Eastern European state they wanted...

Supposedly the idea was that it was the powers behind the throne that kept the nation going, like with the Merovingians or the Mamluk mithaq system that appeared after their civil wars. However much the Mamluks gained stability from appointing a figurehead, they certainly didn't fix all their internal issues to be able to go around conquering all their neighbors! The Ottoman system is unrealistically stable and strong.
 
no Game of Thrones
I wonder what the fate of western slavs would be without said conflict. It took germans the conquest of entire Poland to start assimilating into the slavic culture instead of simply assimilating them into proper germans. I'd even say without Ascanians styling themselves as protectors of slavic lands against german invaders(Oh, the irony) once they secured the Crown of Bohemia, the czechs, silesians, lusatians, slovaks, kashubians and poles themselves may end up speaking german.
OTL was a bit of a Serbia wank. The Despotate of Thessaly was never going to survive long after the Crusade set it up
The Despotate couldn't last long, but Serbs were not the only ones who could have snapped it. The Byzantians were on their last breath by this time of course, but there were latin principalities in Greece, Bulgarians were pretty strong at the time, and there's this "Empire of Angels" TL about Epirus going on a conquest spree.
Isn't it a small town in Vladimir region? I think it was a seat for second sons and the like in Vladimir Duchy at the time, why would you even consider it as a potential unifier of Rus'?
 

Deleted member 97083

Isn't it a small town in Vladimir region? I think it was a seat for second sons and the like in Vladimir Duchy at the time, why would you even consider it as a potential unifier of Rus'?
I was joking of course. The small town of Moscow, known for its sleazy mayor and wacky Old Believers, has a bit of a reputation in the Soviet Federation as being the butt of jokes.
 
I wonder what the fate of western slavs would be without said conflict. It took germans the conquest of entire Poland to start assimilating into the slavic culture instead of simply assimilating them into proper germans. I'd even say without Ascanians styling themselves as protectors of slavic lands against german invaders(Oh, the irony) once they secured the Crown of Bohemia, the czechs, silesians, lusatians, slovaks, kashubians and poles themselves may end up speaking german.

What a reversal! German dominance instead of rough parity; if Germanization hits the Bohemians et al Zachodoslavism* is less popular in this world, if it ever even comes into being. And of course how does this affect the Rejectionist Reformation**? In our world the Rejectionism of both Germans and Poles brought them together as equals; there are so many butterflies here I can't imagine what this would look like.

The Despotate couldn't last long, but Serbs were not the only ones who could have snapped it. The Byzantians were on their last breath by this time of course, but there were latin principalities in Greece, Bulgarians were pretty strong at the time, and there's this "Empire of Angels" TL about Epirus going on a conquest spree.

Oh, Epirus, the perpetual thorn in the side of the Serbs! All the "remove ćevapi**" types idealize the Epirotes and their supposed great struggle against the evil Slavic conquerors. The Serbs were much more tolerant than Rhoman or Wallachian patriots would have you think.

*"West Slavism," a pan-unification movement

**alt-Protestant Reformation

***Serbian and Balkan dish
 
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