DB Discussion: China refuses to recognise Taiwanese independence

[Thande]

OOC Note for n00bs: This is roleplaying from the point of view of an ATL, the basics of which will be given below, but everyone has to fill in the details as we go along.

So, what does everyone think of the current situation in Asia? As we know, Bob, Taiwan (our older members may know it as Formosa) has rebelled against Chinese rule and has declared an independent republic using the indigenous dialect as the official language.

Of course the Chinese have the military capability to reconquer the island, but will they really risk the potential loss of face, when Nanking is hosting the Olympics later this year?

But on the other hand, can they afford to ignore the spectacle of the Taiwanese pulling down the statue of Chiang Kai-shek, which everyone has seen on the Globalnet, no matter how they try to censor it?

OOC: Obviously the POD here is that the Nationalists won the Chinese Civil War, and the rebellion on Taiwan is that of the indigenous Taiwanese against Chinese cultural rule.

 

[Zajir]

I've heard rumors that the Chinese plan to attack Taiwan,because it's secession might cause unrest in Mongolia and Tuva.

 

[Ed Costello]

It's going to be... interesting (in the Chinese sense, naturally) - there have been many much-needed reforms in the army since the standoff against the Zedong Brotherhood in Qianmen Square, but even so any invasion is going to be bloody. Don't forget, some of the Republic's best troops come from Formosa.

There'll also be wary eyes cast towards Vladivostok; Baikal have long wanted to increase their influence in the Chinese sphere, and any invasion will likely lead to a massive escalation in tensions between the two powers.

 

[Bishop]

Pointless, for all the talk of indigenous Taiwanese, there are only a few thousand real ethnicly indigenous Taiwanese. Most of the people rebelling are ethnic Chinese that have been in Taiwan for more than several generations. The ethnic Chinese that have only recently arrived are pro-China and they represent a quarter of the population, not only that, but they also control most of the economy in Taiwan.

You guys forget that there's still bloody fighting going on between the military stationed in Taiwan and the rebels. The military still hold most of the ports and urban areas since the urban areas are generally pro-China. It would be easy to land more troops into Taiwan and crush this rebellion.

 

[ninebucks]

I've heard rumors that the Chinese plan to attack Taiwan,because it's secession might cause unrest in Mongolia and Tuva.

Creating an island-load of matyrs won't do anything to calm down any of the other secessionists.

We all remember what happened in '58, China sent the troops into Tibet and the international community turned against them instantly. The Chinese withdrew, and the Indians and Soviets marched in, establishing a protectoracy that exists to today.

 

[Hendryk]

As we know, Bob, Taiwan (our older members may know it as Formosa) has rebelled against Chinese rule and has declared an independent republic using the indigenous dialect as the official language.

Which is Minnan.

I take no position on the issue, but objectively, one has to admit that the independentists have a point. The Nationalist rule over the island has been one of despotism and corruption all the way since 1945. With Chiang busy mopping up the Communists on the mainland, his appointed strongman Chen Yi had free rein to set himself up as a virtual dictator, more interested in lining his own pockets than enforcing the rule of law, and it went downhill from there. Before long the Pen-Ti-Jen realized that even the Japanese made a better job of ruling the island. As the situation failed to improve in the following decades, one can forgive the Taiwanese for eventually losing patience.

 

[Ed Costello]

We all remember what happened in '58, China sent the troops into Tibet and the international community turned against them instantly. The Chinese withdrew, and the Indians and Soviets marched in, establishing a protectoracy that exists to today.

Nooo, don't bring up Tibet again! And please, please, don't call it a Soviet protectoracy! Unless, that is, you want to bring down the wrath of half the board on this thread...

 

[admkenshin]

Nooo, don't bring up Tibet again! And please, please, don't call it a Soviet protectoracy! Unless, that is, you want to bring down the wrath of half the board on this thread...

OOC: Agreed. There's so much 'fired up news' (i.e. propaganda) in the media today that it's hard to make an informed comment about it .

IC: IMHO, if there's any part of China that deserves independence in lieu of how it has been treated, it's Taiwan. Not only were all of japanese decent deported, people who more or less kept the order, knew how Taiwan was best run, but the replacement bureaucracy imported from the mainland was rotten thorough. Oldtimers keep talking about how the nuclear bomb would have been preferable to the 'Chinese bomb'.

Basically, it's been so bad and corrupt, that even most mainlanders on Taiwan demands a change, although wether they would support a secession is debatable.

The army units stationed on Taiwan are mostly recruited from local mainlanders, right? I think the big question then is how the local army leadership reacts, who they're loyal to, and who can pay them the most.

 

[Mr_ Bondoc]

Well, this is another case wherein our unwavering support of the Chinese government has come to bite America on its rump for yet another time. Does it bother fellow Americans that China always seems to pop up on the "worst human rights violator" according to Amnesty International, Human Rights Now, and Asia Watch? Even the U.S. State Department has stated since 1964 that the country has said that there are "little or no guarantees of either safety or legal protection". President Lien Chien has much to explain, especially considering the 1997 crackdown on student demonstrators in Hong Kong, wherein 412 students were killed by government troops....


Personally, besides the planned crackdown on Taiwan under General Wu Po-hsiung, I would like to know why Persident Lien Chien supported the Khun Sa regime in Burma and its trafficking of opium and heroin into the United States nad Western Europe since 1969. These are questions that must be answered ASAP!!!

 

[ImperialVienna]

When the hell did they change Formosa's name?!?!

 

[Hendryk]

When the hell did they change Formosa's name?!?!

You know, in Chinese the place was never called Formosa to begin with.

 

[Strategos' Risk]

Forget the islanders. This is just going to give the Manchurians an excuse to be all monarchistic.

 

[ninebucks]

Nooo, don't bring up Tibet again! And please, please, don't call it a Soviet protectoracy! Unless, that is, you want to bring down the wrath of half the board on this thread...

I think 'protectoracy' is a perfectly reasonable word to use, without explicit Soviet and Indian military support, the days of the Tibetan Republic would be numbered.

Anyway, best saved for another thread, I agree.

 

[Strategos' Risk]

Seriously, hasn't anyone heard that the Russians and Japanese have been continuously smuggling weapons to the Manchunks in Harbin? They're surely a greater threat than some lamaist soviet stooges. Thank Tengri that Nanjing pays off the Mongols to keep them loyal. Play off the nomadic barbarians against each other, that's what my pappy always told me.

 

[Mr_ Bondoc]

Something that is being reported in Pravda and the New York Times is that the Communist government of the People's Republic of India (PRI), under Premier Ardhendu Bhushan Bardhan has said that it will refuse to recognize the secession of Formosa. Apparently Bardhan is concerned that the ultranationalist leaders of Formosa pose a threat to world security with the nuclear weapons that have been placd there since 1966. Considering that the Chinese ICBMs could reach any point in India within 2-3 hours since 1994, it is underatandable why Bardhan wants inspectors from the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA). Many Indians still believe the fighting in Sobraon was caused "British and American intelligence agencies...."

 

[Ed Costello]

Seriously, hasn't anyone heard that the Russians and Japanese have been continuously smuggling weapons to the Manchunks in Harbin? They're surely a greater threat than some lamaist soviet stooges. Thank Tengri that Nanjing pays off the Mongols to keep them loyal. Play off the nomadic barbarians against each other, that's what my pappy always told me.

Okay... first off, what Russians? For the god-knows-how-many'th time, China's northern neighbour is BAIKAL. Any land East of the Urals hasn't been Russian since 1973! (well, technically since 1917, when it became Soviet, but let's not get into semantics - again...)

Second, 'continuously' is a bit of a stretch considering they've only really started trying in the past five years - and by the way, placing Japan's support on a par with Baikal's is a good way to piss off the Edzophiles.

Thirdly - GAH! India is not Soviet! They and their puppet regime in Tibet are Communist, after a fashion, but they were in no way on Moscow's leash.

Oh, and fourthly, call nomads 'barbarians' again and I WILL report you. (OOC: Not really, purely IC comment)

 

[Strategos' Risk]

Baikal? pschaw That's just like cutting off an arm and calling it a brother. They're no less Russian than the Ukraine is. Everyone knows that Moscow has got its fingers all over their former lands in the far east. And P.M. Rogozin would just love to have the Manchurians, Mongolians, Uighur, and Zhuang break away of China- to fall into the Russo-Indian orbit.

 

[Mr_ Bondoc]

Thirdly - GAH! India is not Soviet! They and their puppet regime in Tibet are Communist, after a fashion, but they were in no way on Moscow's leash.

I'm not one of those right-wing nutcases like Senator Bill O'Reilly (R-NY) who believes that the Russians and Indians "march lock and step to the same bootstrap...", but I have to say that the Indian government since it's inception in 1942 under Subhas Chandra Bose has been bent on spreading its version of Bosist-Marxist Socialism (OOC: philosophy of Subhas Chandra Bose). The armed border conflicts of 1962, 1968, 1976, 1989 and 2004 should be clear indications that they haven't given up on this goal. That is why even supporters of the President Gerald Springer (D) should not trust the Bardhan regime at its word...

 

[Zajir]

I think that the Empire of Japan and the Empire of Vietnam should stop the anti-chinese speech,I mean seriously the Korean and Vietnamese leaders of the United Pan-Asian Conference have said that and I quote "The end of Chinese Imperialism is nigh"
Now I know that they don't have much political power,but still they have considerable popularity.
I think that these kind of speech only weakens the region to the advance of Communism.
Have these men forgotten that there nearly only five years ago did the Philippines fall to the Soviet-backed Revolutionary Liberation Army of the Philippines (Marxist-Leninist) RLAP(ml).

 

[Ed Costello]

I'm not one of those right-wing nutcases like Senator Bill O'Reilly (R-NY) who believes that the Russians and Indians "march lock and step to the same bootstrap...", but I have to say that the Indian government since it's inception in 1942 under Subhas Chandra Bose has been bent on spreading its version of Bosist-Marxist Socialism (OOC: philosophy of Subhas Chandra Bose). The armed border conflicts of 1962, 1968, 1976, 1989 and 2004 should be clear indications that they haven't given up on this goal. That is why even supporters of the President Gerald Springer (D) should not trust the Bardhan regime at its word...

Hmmm... I've always been wary of the PRI's claims - certainly since the fall of the USSR, they seem to have lessened their ideological bent. It's far from 'Communism in name only' as their supporters claim, but until Bardhan took office it wasn't unusual for them to be to the right of the Russian Federation (surely a case of 'Communism in all but name').

And it still doesn't change the fact that Armchair Republicans are still using the phrase 'Soviet' to refer to all of non-Chinese Asia when in fact it referred to one state that ceased to exist in 1973 and a few of its long-defunct (okay, not Poland or Armenia, sheesh) satellite states.

Have these men forgotten that there nearly only five years ago did the Philippines fall to the Soviet-backed Revolutionary Liberation Army of the Philippines (Marxist-Leninist) RLAP(ml).

GAAAAAHHH!