Daughter of Richard III of England

Instead of his short lived son Edward, Richard III of England has an only but healthy daughter. Since he would have been only 12 in 1485, when Henry Tudor takes over, what would become of her? I suspect that a marriage with some obscure Tudor crony would eventually happen. But if this line continues, I strongly suspect that Henry VIII would cause trouble..
 
Instead of his short lived son Edward, Richard III of England has an only but healthy daughter. Since he would have been only 12 in 1485, when Henry Tudor takes over, what would become of her? I suspect that a marriage with some obscure Tudor crony would eventually happen. But if this line continues, I strongly suspect that Henry VIII would cause trouble..

Assuming Richard still seizes the throne, his most sensible courser would be to marry his daughter to ex-King Edward V. That way, he can return to the throne after Richard, and the division in the House of York be healed. It's Richard's best chance to die of old age.
 
Mikestone8 said:
Assuming Richard still seizes the throne, his most sensible courser would be to marry his daughter to ex-King Edward V. That way, he can return to the throne after Richard, and the division in the House of York be healed. It's Richard's best chance to die of old age.
Edward V would be three years older than Richard's daughter in that scenario, so a match does seem likely. However, this has me raising the question of whether or not Richard seizes the throne if he goes that road. Richard still making a move to claim the Regency of Edward V upon the death of Edward IV is still a very likely scenario. But if he intends to marry the future King of England to his daughter, then isn't it better to keep Edward V on the throne for Richard? After all, with his daughter as Queen of England, Richard will likely be an important figure in his nephew and son-in-law's court. Also, if Richard does intend for his daughter to marry Edward V, how the hell would he seizes the throne? OTL, he did that by declaring Edward V and his brother Richard of Schrewsbury illegitimate.
 
Edward V would be three years older than Richard's daughter in that scenario, so a match does seem likely. However, this has me raising the question of whether or not Richard seizes the throne if he goes that road. Richard still making a move to claim the Regency of Edward V upon the death of Edward IV is still a very likely scenario. But if he intends to marry the future King of England to his daughter, then isn't it better to keep Edward V on the throne for Richard? After all, with his daughter as Queen of England, Richard will likely be an important figure in his nephew and son-in-law's court. Also, if Richard does intend for his daughter to marry Edward V, how the hell would he seizes the throne? OTL, he did that by declaring Edward V and his brother Richard of Schrewsbury illegitimate.


Trouble is Edward V (if still king) may not wish to marry Richard's daughter. As I understand it, the problem was that he was under the influence of the Woodville family whom Richard feared.

If OTOH EV has been deposed, and the marriage is his only way of coming back, he'll likely do it. And since he will only resume the throne after Richard's death, from Richard's pov his Woodville connections will no longer matter.

The main question mark, though is whether Richard will find enough support to risk seizing the crown in the first place. A Richard without a male heir will be seen as a less promising choice for it.
 
If Richard does still claim the throne, which is slightly less likely (problems with his son inheriting some of the Neville lands is sometimes seen as one contributing factor to why he acted the way he did), I don't see how he could marry his daughter to her now illegitimate cousin. It's the same logic as was applied to the marriage of Elizabeth of York to Richard, and while it does seem a sensible way to unite the now split House of York, by marrying them he would in essence be admiting he had no real right to the throne and would be setting Edward in a very powerful position to challenge any potential sons Richard could have fathered later in his reign.

Also the idea of Richard marrying her to Edward and remaining Lord Protector is interesting but unless she has an unusually large impact on Edward, I think Edward will remain strongly pro-Woodville (especially if Richard has arrested Rivers, Grey and Vaughan as he did OTL) and it would be interesting to see how the nobility/political community as a whole felt about that marriage (some similarities to the unpopular move by the Duke of Suffolk marrying his son to the Beaufort heiress who was high in the line of succession to cement his place). Richard if you believe he was entitled to be Lord Protector was Lord Protector by right and marrying his daughter to Edward changes that and would likely be unpopular when Edward could be married off abroad to cement alliances.

Richard's best course of action, as indeed it was in OTL, is to marry his child into a strong European family to legitimise his claim and strenghten himself on a European level.
 
Richard's best course of action, as indeed it was in OTL, is to marry his child into a strong European family to legitimise his claim and strenghten himself on a European level.

If Richard was able to secure a betrothal for his daughter before Bosworth then Henry Tudor would likely have to fight off a rival claim from whoever the bridegroom happened to be. If this was a fairly powerful family the Holy Roman Empire, such as Philip the Fair, Henry really would have a hard time keeping the country. If Richard's daughter was betrothed to either the Habsburg or Valois then Henry Tudor may not have been in a position to challenge Richard. Tudor's army did rely on French mercenaries that might not have been provided if Richard had a powerful ally.
 
If Richard was able to secure a betrothal for his daughter before Bosworth then Henry Tudor would likely have to fight off a rival claim from whoever the bridegroom happened to be. If this was a fairly powerful family the Holy Roman Empire, such as Philip the Fair, Henry really would have a hard time keeping the country. If Richard's daughter was betrothed to either the Habsburg or Valois then Henry Tudor may not have been in a position to challenge Richard. Tudor's army did rely on French mercenaries that might not have been provided if Richard had a powerful ally.

Agreed although given the relationship or lack of one between Richard and Louis XI of France I think Richard would be more likely to ally with HRE or the Spanish who IIRC were interested in Richard's son marrying one of their daughters OTL
 
If Richard does still claim the throne, which is slightly less likely (problems with his son inheriting some of the Neville lands is sometimes seen as one contributing factor to why he acted the way he did),

Can you tell me more about this? I've never heard about this. Is it because Richard's marriage wasn't unquestionably legitimate?

I don't see Richard declaring Edward V a bastard and then marrying him to his daughter. He's pretty validating Edward's legitimacy if he does that, and that opens up a can of words. As someone said, its like Richard marrying Elizabeth of York after he had her bastardized.

I could see him remaining Lord Protector and marrying his daughter to Edward V and maintaining power that way. Suffolk was largely blamed by the English people for the losses of the French lands and was a parvenu. Richard had a fairly positive reputation at that time, so the option may have worked better for him than Suffolk.

About the option of Richard III having his daughter married to a foreign ally. There's not a lot of time for him to arrange a marriage until Bosworth rolls around. I suspect Richard would only get aid from an ally, if his daughter was over 12 and had been formally married (rather than a betrothal) Foreign powers may question the chances of Richard holding onto power as well.
 
Agreed although given the relationship or lack of one between Richard and Louis XI of France I think Richard would be more likely to ally with HRE or the Spanish who IIRC were interested in Richard's son marrying one of their daughters OTL

I agree that Richard most definitely did not have a great relationship with France but Louis XI died in 1483 and Charles VIII came to the throne. He was a young king and was under the Regency of his sister Anne. There is potential that the relationship could improve but given the action in OTL its not likely.
 
She wouldn't marry a foreigner, that would be asking for trouble. Richard would either betroth her to his de la Pole nephew and heir or do nothing while attempting to father a male heir.
 
Can you tell me more about this? I've never heard about this. Is it because Richard's marriage wasn't unquestionably legitimate?

I believe its mentioned in Hicks' Richard III and his Rivals that Richard and Clarence enjoyed the Neville lands as long as there were heirs male of George's father John, Lord Montagu. When George died this meant the male line of John was extinct and Richard's interest in the property became for life only. George Nevilles death took place just one month after the death of Edward IV and just days after Richard arrested Lord Rivers. It could be argued that this would have worried Richard as had this happened before Edward's death I have little doubt Edward would have granted him the lands without the previous stipulation but with Edward dead and his son's inheritance at stake Richard decided to enforce his rule and started on a slippery slope towards taking the crown. It is by no means the sole reason for his actions but is something to consider whether he would still have the same panic if he had only a daughter to inherit.
 
I believe its mentioned in Hicks' Richard III and his Rivals that Richard and Clarence enjoyed the Neville lands as long as there were heirs male of George's father John, Lord Montagu. When George died this meant the male line of John was extinct and Richard's interest in the property became for life only. George Nevilles death took place just one month after the death of Edward IV and just days after Richard arrested Lord Rivers. It could be argued that this would have worried Richard as had this happened before Edward's death I have little doubt Edward would have granted him the lands without the previous stipulation but with Edward dead and his son's inheritance at stake Richard decided to enforce his rule and started on a slippery slope towards taking the crown. It is by no means the sole reason for his actions but is something to consider whether he would still have the same panic if he had only a daughter to inherit.

Thank you for explaining that :) It's interesting.
 
If he isn't married by bosworth I expect Henry has her shipped off to a convent somewhere. She's alot less likely to be a rally point for resistance, than a son, but I doubt Henry would want a conmection to the old regime running around. If Henry doesn't arrange some kind of accident she'd probably live out her life in obscurity.
 
Also the idea of Richard marrying her to Edward and remaining Lord Protector is interesting but unless she has an unusually large impact on Edward, I think Edward will remain strongly pro-Woodville (especially if Richard has arrested Rivers, Grey and Vaughan as he did OTL)

Edward is 13 years old; his political preferences really don't matter. Richard chops all the Woodvilles, and unless Edward was really fond of one or more of them, he won't care that much.

By the time he reaches his majority, it will be old news.

As to the marriage of Edward with Richard's daughter - she'd only be 10 years old. The actual marriage would have to be postponed for a few years. One question is whether he can make Edward submit when he's say 16. If he does, he's locked into a very powerful position for quite a while, barring a Lancastrian comeback or the death of Edward or his daughter.

When Edward does reach majority, he will start to rebel against Richard. The Queen may take either side. Richard's wife Anne could be a factor, too, if she does not die, and also the Queen Mother Elizabeth. She'll be disgruntled over the liquidation of her brother and son. Once Edward reaches majority, she'll make a comeback.

I think Richard could foresee this. Unless he thinks he can absolutely dominate Edward, he's going to want the crown for himself. Alternately, if he's ruthless enough, he could wait until Edward and his daughter have a child, and then dispose of Edward - thus securing his regency for another 18 years.
 
Edward is 13 years old; his political preferences really don't matter. Richard chops all the Woodvilles, and unless Edward was really fond of one or more of them, he won't care that much.

By the time he reaches his majority, it will be old news.

I disagree that Edward's political preferences dont matter. Yes Richard would have control for the forseeable future but the case of Edward III and Roger Mortimer shows what tends to happen to those who usurp the king's power and push him too far. I believe Edward was very fond of his uncle Anthony, remonstrating his innocence to Gloucester and Buckingham at Stony Stratford IOTL

Also if Richard is at court as Lord Protector he could easily have his daugher married to Edward. Yes they would have to wait a while to consumate the marriage but Richard II married a 6 year old French princess, so I cant see it being delayed too long.
 
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