Dassault Mirage III export to Germany

Here is fascinate french Video about development of Mirage III (follow link)

With a Surprise for me: the Real Reason why German Luftwaffe not got the Mirage III
Most the story you hear is dat Marcel Dassault refused to sell to Germany because of his experience during Second world war in Nazi concentration camps.
In this video his son Serge tell another story (at 32:25 in video in french):

The german Luftwaffe had send a Test pilot to France, to fly Mirage prototype,
Dassault make the mistake to let him fly the the smaller subsonic version, instead to wait until the Mirage III was ready, he could not handle the airplane right and had other problem to fly it.
after this experience, the Test pilot write a extrem negative report about Mirage, not recommending it for Luftwaffe.
3 months later the supersonic Mirage III prototype take off and on desk of German Minster of Defense Franz Joseph Strauss lands this Report...

That explain why the Luftwaffe take F-104, another detail by Serge Dassault, had the German Government taken the Mirage III Dassault would have seek cooperation with German Aerospace industry
maybe so Serge Dassault would the aircraft manufacturing be today a French German company (at 35:00 in Video)

So what if Dassault refused the request by german Test Pilot and let him wait until Mirage III is ready ?
 
That explain why the Luftwaffe take F-104, another detail by Serge Dassault, had the German Government taken the Mirage III Dassault would have seek cooperation with German Aerospace industry

Isn't the purchase of F-104 by the Luftwaffe explained by a very large sack of cash and some very happy politicians?
 

Archibald

Banned
What subsonic variant ? do you mean the old MD-550 Delta ? EDIT - aparently yes. No surprise the German pilot hated it. The Mirage I was a sow - underpowered, barely supersonic.

As for Lockheed bribery scandals a name stands at the top of the list: Frantz Joseph Strauss and his "kingdom" of Bavaria.

Dassault however was no angel - there was a pretty big, nasty scandal with the Swiss Mirage IIIs.

Note that the Serge Dassault you see in the documentary is pretty corrupt by himself - see all those Corbeil sur Essone affairs.
 
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Many people's opinions are so easily swayed by just a few million dollars, whereas the opinion of a test pilot is just a bunch of words.,I don't know the exact date of the flight testing or the exact model flown, but the first Mirages weren't the same as the last, and at the time of the purchase decision, the Mirage IIIA was barely into the infancy of its flight test program, with its flight parameters untested and unverified, a baby, while the Starfighter was mature.

Later, some British test pilots evaluated another Dassault product, the Mirage IVS, with Spey powerplants, as follow on to cancelled TSR-2 and alternative to F-111. Politicians claimed a failure to perform what test pilots said it could perform well, attack profiles at low level. Do German politicians listen to test pilots better? Presuming that the German test pilot flew one of the superior Mirage examples, and returned with a glowing report, not a sure thing depending on exact timing, would German politicians listen, or just count their money?

In hindsight, the timing of the deal favored the Starfighter, and changing the timing changes the outcome, perhaps. While I'm sure the best low-level tactical nuclear strike aircraft wasn't the Starfighter, it was cheaper, and came with benefits.
 
On German Test Pilot that must be either
the Mirage I or the Mirage III-001, or it was Mirage III-001 while other was the first IIIA model
i not understand Serge Dassault clearly, my french is not so good.

bribery scandals is not new for Dassault Aviation, they pay considerable sum of Money to Belgium socialist Party to get the order for Belgium Mirage IIIR in 1970s
in that case they had also offer Franz Joseph Strauss also large "arrangement fee"...

it would interesting to See how Dassault Aviation had cooperate with German Aerospace industry for Production of Mirage IIIG G for Germany

Under German Government the F-104G production went under Arbeitsgemeinschaften (ARGE) in eng working groups
it would be like wise for Mirage IIIG

ARGE Nord (north Germany)
Focke-Wulf – Hamburger Flugzeugbau (HFB) – Weser-Flugzeugbau

ARGE Sud (south Germany)
Dornier – Heinkel – Messerschmitt-Bölkow-Blohm (MBB) – WMD/SIAT – BMW/MAN Turbomotoren (Jet engine production also for ARGE Nord).

with merge of German Aerospace Manufactures in end 1960s, only Two Major company will remain: Dornier and MBB future partners of Dassault Aviation
 
I remember reading in regard to the SEPECAT Jaguar that Dassault scuppered the sale of the carrier version to Marine Nationale by telling them its approach performance was poor so they could sell the Super Etendard instead. Let's not forget the BAe and Saudi corruption scandals. When you have people in charge of spending large amounts of someone else's money it is depressing easy to sway their opinion.
 
I remember reading in regard to the SEPECAT Jaguar that Dassault scuppered the sale of the carrier version to Marine Nationale by telling them its approach performance was poor so they could sell the Super Etendard instead. Let's not forget the BAe and Saudi corruption scandals. When you have people in charge of spending large amounts of someone else's money it is depressing easy to sway their opinion.

The sale of naval Jaguars was probably influenced somewhat by the fact that they bent when they landed in trials. The Etendard did not. Deal made.
 
It is possible. The two key people here are FJS and Dessault. First Dessault has to denie the request of the Testpilot and offer the BmVg to fly one of the Mirage III prototypes. Secondly Dessault has to court FJS. Give him some "motivators" and apply to his Gaulist ideas. Contrary to popular believe FJS, like Adenauer was more of a Gaulist European than a Trans-Atlanticist. If Dessault can prommise him Franco-German cooperation and production facilities in Germany FJS is going to jump in to bed with him.
 

Andre27

Banned
Isn't the purchase of F-104 by the Luftwaffe explained by a very large sack of cash and some very happy politicians?

It was a political purchase, but not necessarily one with bribes involved although it is impossible to say there were none.

The F-104 was an American aircraft and the purchase furthered the bonds between Germany and US.

Germany wanted to participate in NATO's nuclear tasks and the delivery systems were not compatible with French aircraft.

But the bottom line is that the Mirage III represented a more conventional design approach with its delta wing and the F-104 was a bit more radical.
In hindsight the Mirage may have been the better choice, but both planes were children of their generation and the difference at that time seemed small enough to allow secondary reasons (politics and nuclear tasks) to tip the scale in favour of the 104
 

Archibald

Banned
the Mirage I or the Mirage III-001, or it was Mirage III-001 while other was the first IIIA model
i not understand Serge Dassault clearly, my french is not so good.

There was indeed a Mirage III-001, then 25 Mirage IIIA were build. Both types had excellent performance.
Serge Dassault clearly mention the earlier Mirage i.e the 550 Delta = or Mirage I (the Mirage II was never termined, some hardware ended on the III-01)

It was that little ugly thing
image008.jpg



Mirage+1.jpg
 
Thanks for Information Archibald

The German test pilot was Walter Krupinski
According German Wikipedia
He flew Dezember 1957 in California the F-104 „Starfighter“
End Mai 1958, he flew in Villaroche, the Dassault Mirage
he never tested the third candidate the Northrop F-5
Krupinski insist to buy the F-104 (speculation had Lockheed bribed him also?)
sadly ALL documents of Lockheed at Luftwaffe got accidentally destroy in 1962...
while Walter Krupinski make career in Luftwaffe, until 1976 he got involved in Rudel Scandal.
he gave personal invitation to a tradition meeting, to old Luftwaffe officer and nazi Hans-Ulrich Rudel.
who was in time leader of extrem right, the German Reich Party.
 

Archibald

Banned
Thanks for Information Archibald

The German test pilot was Walter Krupinski
According German Wikipedia
He flew Dezember 1957 in California the F-104 „Starfighter“
End Mai 1958, he flew in Villaroche, the Dassault Mirage
he never tested the third candidate the Northrop F-5
Krupinski insist to buy the F-104 (speculation had Lockheed bribed him also?)
sadly ALL documents of Lockheed at Luftwaffe got accidentally destroy in 1962...
while Walter Krupinski make career in Luftwaffe, until 1976 he got involved in Rudel Scandal.
he gave personal invitation to a tradition meeting, to old Luftwaffe officer and nazi Hans-Ulrich Rudel.
who was in time leader of extrem right, the German Reich Party.

Krupinski ? that name sounds vaguely familiar.. Wasn't he one of those big WWII Luftawffe aces with hundreds of victories ?
May 1958 explains a lot of things - the Mirage III-001 was flying for a year, but not the pre-serie Mirage IIIA, which flew in October 1958.
Perhaps the Mirage III-01 was not available, so they had Krupinski flying the older Mirage I.

As for Rudel, he had a very close friendship with French ace Pierre Closterman. Closterman however was not an extremist.
 
Other condensers for the Luftwaffe

in addition to the Mirage III there were several other contenders for that German order apart from the F-104. In addition to various US aircraft I believe the Swedes tried to sell a modified J-35 Draken and the British a multi-role variant of the Lightning, possibly something that would have been like the late-model Mk-53 (?) sold to Saudi arabia.

The most lamented entrant might be the Saunders-Roe SR-177, being developed as a multi-role aircraft for the RAF and RN.

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Hmm, not sure the image link has worked, pity - it can be seen as a new tab though

RAF version cancelled in the "Sandys Storm", which rather put the Germans off, as you could expect, and the cancellation of the RN variant killed any chances of the deal. Even though the UK apparently still tried half-heartedly to seek an aircraft its armed forces didn't want, or more accurately weren't allowed to have!
 
Krupinski ? that name sounds vaguely familiar.. Wasn't he one of those big WWII Luftawffe aces with hundreds of victories ?
May 1958 explains a lot of things - the Mirage III-001 was flying for a year, but not the pre-serie Mirage IIIA, which flew in October 1958.
Perhaps the Mirage III-01 was not available, so they had Krupinski flying the older Mirage I.

As for Rudel, he had a very close friendship with French ace Pierre Closterman. Closterman however was not an extremist.

That's the same Walter Krupinski...

About Hans-Ulrich Rudel
He was controversial War hero, in his books he justified the National Socialist policy and Invasion of USSR
As successful businessman and arms dealer, he also support the international neo nazi scene and help high rank Nazi to escape to Argentina...
 
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