Darkness before Dawn - Purple Phoenix 1416

[elerosse]

PRELUDE - All Men Fall



Dark clouds cover the nightly sky, a horse tail banner dances with small drizzle in the air, from afar a thundering noise could be heard, the angry waves of Aegean Sea crash unrelentingly into the rocky shoreline, a storm is coming.



A young man in blue tunic with exocentric patterns dressed upon his well-built figure stands beneath the horse tail banner, his face is lit by nearby torches, showing a strong jawbone and a full beard. His focus shifts between the dark sea in front, the cloudy sky above, finally laying eye on a blurred shadow of a city.



"Your Highness, the wind is heavy, the drizzle has wet your hair, heavy rainfall may come soon, the warmth of tent is better for your health than the cold wind and rain." a soft voice rings from behind, without looking the young man knew it was his grand vizier Bayezid Pasha, giving him advices as he always has done.



"I know my dear friend, but we do not have the luxury to choose the storms, we can only endure it, and conquer it."



"Your Highness have conquered all storms before and will conquer all storms ahead."



"Speaking of storms..." The young man turned and looked at his grand vizier, with hint of worry in his eyes: "The Venetians have annihilated our fleet at Gallipoli, killing our dear Derya Bey, Cali in the process."



Bayezid knows it is only one of the many concerns his Sultan currently has, and reply calmly as ever: "Cali has underestimated the strength of the Venetians, and paid with his life. The Venetians would cause no great worry for Your Highness though, their fleet may dominate the sea but would be worthless on land. They will be fools if they choose to disturb Your Highness, as many of their valuable castles and town are all within the wrath of our army. As a matter of fact, the Venetians have already sent emissary to discuss terms for peace. They are not worth your distraction for the moment."



The young man nodded slightly to the comforting words of his grand vizier. Ever since that fateful battle in Ankara, Bayezid has always stood by his side, giving him wise counsel and executing his orders faithfully, until recently. He thought for a moment, then changed the topic: "How do you think the Romans will reply to our request? Would they handover my 'dear' cousin Mustafa and that traitor Junayd Bey?"



"The Roman emperor Manuel is a deceitful and scheming kind, he would no doubt use them as bargaining chips against Your Highness, sowing distractions and confusion within our ranks, this is what they've always done during the past decade, this is the only thing they are good at."



As storm moves closer to the shoreline, the raindrops becomes larger and gradually soak the hairs and clothes, yet the young man stand still.



"Pathetic emperor and his pathetic empire." replying with contempt in his voice, the young man paused for a moment, as if to choose his next words thoughtfully, then slowly uttered: "unfortunately we have headaches elsewhere, more imminent storms in Dobrudja, that heretic Bedreddin... regretfully, we must let those Romans have some sweets for the moment, indulge them in their delusion of safety, but do remind them to not overstep themselves. When we strike next, that strike will be like thunderbolt."



"As Your Highness wish. You are wise in your decision; you are the true heir to your father."



"I am the true heir to my father because all my brothers are dead." with eyes suddenly turned cold eyes, the young man looks straight at his grand vizier, reminding his closest confidant through many years, that he is first and foremost the SULTAN, one to be feared before loved.



For a moment Bayezid thought his heart has stopped, he knows that glance too well. It is the glance of disappointment, a potential death sentence.



"Cali may have saved many lives with his death, but know this my grand vizier, the mistake at Gallipoli will not happen again, I will not allow it. For old time’s sake, do not force me upon things I might regretfully execute." with the last warning words, the young man turned and moved towards his tent, a dozen guards clad in armed to the teeth followed him silently, leaving Bayezid shivering in the rain.



Three days later, a small vessel set sail from the city of Thessaloniki towards Constantinople, it brings with it a messenger carrying a letter.



To my most eminent Basileios, the Ottoman prince Mustafa and governor of Nicopolis Junayd Bey have sought refuge in Thessaloniki, after fleeing from their defeat at the hand of Sultan Mehmed. The army of Mehmed in pursuit has surrounded the city demanding us to hand them over. I have after three days of negotiations decided to inform my Basileios the offer of the Ottomans with this letter. In exchange for our handover the Ottomans would offer 1.000.000 akces.



For your wise consideration, during the negotiation the rebellion in Dobrudja has worsened, so much so that it apparently required the full attention of Mehmed, for he rode off with his janissary yesterday in haste, despite getting a cold and feeling unwell. Giving the unfavorable situation the Ottomans currently have themselves in, I believe they would be rather susceptible to a deal more in our favor, but that is a deal that requires a 'direct' line of communication between two heads of states.



Regardless, Thessaloniki stands firm, walls are manned daily, people are well fed, morale high, the Ottoman navy cannot blockade our port after their recent crushing defeat at the hands of the Venetians, the city will stand. Despot Andronikos has recovered well from the illness that has plagued him lately, he sends his regards to you.



I hope this letter find my Basileios in good hands.



Your perpetual loyal and faithful servant, Demetrios Laskaris Leontares



The fifth day of June, our Lord 1416.

 

[elerosse]

So, for anyone that takes an interest to this story - I will update once or twice a week for the foreseeable future.

For those that didn’t notice, POD is Mehmed catching a real bad cold in summer 1416, that gradually chip away his health, shortening his lifespan. At the same time the disputed disease that otherwise would have cause some serious trouble for Despot Andronikos the second son of Emperor Manuel II is cured completely.

In otl Andronikos suffered from a disputed disease. some argued it was leprosy, some argued it was plague, it nevertheless severely hindered the development and political career for the young despot. In otl he was an unimportant figure that died in his twenties, only a footnote in the history. As a result his character, personalities and political philosophy were clouded and forgotten. By removing the disease, I could give this young man a fresh start, see if he could truly live up to his name, victory of man.

 

[Wendell]

Interesting idea.

 

[Quinkana]

This is quite interesting! I hope the ottomans fragment and allow the Greeks to have some breathing room. Byzantium at that point is mainly a Venetian puppet, but I think with a competent/good emperor Byzantium can regain some of their lands and form the basis of a solid recovery.

 

[elerosse]

So I have changed the prelud slightly to better reflect the relationship Mehmed had with his grand vizier

 

[Flavius Iulius Nepos]

The empire can't possibly defeat the Ottomans (unless they fragment once again) on its own, but the Palaiologos can definitely attempt to build a stronger foundation to be ready by the time alt-Varna happens.

 

[elerosse]

The empire can't possibly defeat the Ottomans (unless they fragment once again) on its own, but the Palaiologos can definitely attempt to build a stronger foundation to be ready by the time alt-Varna happens.

this is more of less what Ive had in mind, but I'm now exploring a potential crusade happening earlier than iotl Varna

 

[Whiteshore]

Byzantium at that point is mainly a Venetian puppet

An unfortunate state of affairs indeed.

 

[Quinkana]

An unfortunate state of affairs indeed.

Of course. An empire under control by a Republic that the empire somewhat created is unfortunate indeed.

 

[elerosse]

Chapter I - City of Thessalian Nike



The childhood of Andronikos Palaiologos is unfortunately clouded in mystery. The young prince was separated from his family at the age of eight, to become the nominal Despot of Thessaloniki, under the guardianship of the experience soldier and administrator Demetrios Laskaris Leontares. Unlike his brother Theodoros who received Morea and had to spend his time in cold citadels, Andronikos had the luxury of living in the second largest city of the Empire, though at that time greatly reduced in population, wealth and influence due to years of turmoil and the occupation of Ottomans. However, before the summer of 1416, the young prince is hardly present in any historical records, almost as if he is a phantom. Some correspondence letters between Roman bishops dated from 1430’s mentioned a rare disease that has severely hampered his ability to socialize or partake any important role during his youth years – a disease seen as punishment of Lord by the bishops.



...The theory that Andronikos was influenced by Master Plethon at a young age, that this young prince was a secret pagan disciple and worshipper of heathen gods, is speculation at best, and only serves as loud-hailer for the wild and fantastical accusations made by conservative bishops stemming from 1430s and 1440s. What we can deduct, and safely assume, based on the later achievements of the young prince, is that he most likely would have received a solid military education and must have had at least some experience in statecraft, a proposition not too farfetched, considering the close relationship the young prince had with his guardian, the wise and brave Leontares.



- Treatise on the political development in early 1400s Balkan, Professor Emeritus Alexandros Lekapenos, Academia Thessalonica, 1899



*******************************************************************

Map of Thessaloniki



From the Palace of Galerius, a young man in his teens leans his body outside the window, his long pale hair blown by the wind, enjoying the warmth of sunlight. His body is lean, his face delicate and pretty, yet thin and pallid.



From above, he could hear the noise of conversation and talks on the streets, looking down, he could see the shapes and outfits of each pedestrian, see the basket in their arms, children running past. The smell of salt and fish in the air makes him cast his eyes on the harbor not too afar, and he observes carefully the many ships with foreign flags that has docked his port, his city.



"Venetians, Genoese, Ragusan, Imperial... mostly Venetian flags." counting the flags of ships, the young man speaks the result to himself.



For many years he has stuck to his room, perpetually weak in his feet, unable to go out and play or perform his duties, only accompanied by books and letters.



Everything changed a week ago, when he finally felt better for the first time since memory, he felt strength in his legs, and he was able to walk and talk continuously without the need for gasp. By following the instructions of his old pen pal Master Plethon’s advice, taking potions sent by the master which claims were made according to the ancient book of magi, he felt better, and cured.



A storm passed the shores yesterday. Reminded of the saying ‘sunshine always follows rain’, the teenager decides for a walk down the street, something he has always feared.



The young man manages to put on some decent clothes, then proceeds down the stairs to the grand hall. Along the way servants bow, in their eyes he can detect surprise and amazement, as they have rarely seen him walk this freely without assistance.



“Open the door.” The young man moves across the hall into the yard, then gives his order to the guard at the front door. They paused for a moment, then slowly opened the gate to the street.



Standing in the street, seen people passing by, the young man felt excitement in his chest. A fresh endeavor so usual to people yet so novel to him. Slowly he begins to walk down the street, observing inquisitively the prices of wares at street vendor, the clothes of people, the talks they make, to gather a sense on what nromal day is like for ordinary people - he has always had a responsive ear and eyes.



As he walks down the street, he observes many people in angst, both men and women are quietly discussing, gossiping about the matter that has gained the attention of everyone in the city - the Ottoman siege that begun four days ago. The thought of the Ottomans brings memories of the past begins to fly past his mind.



Born Andronikos Palaiologos in 1400, he is the son of Manuel II, the emperor of Romans. He lived in Constantinople in his youth, at the palace of Blachernae, until the age of eight, when he was called upon by his father the emperor to become despot of Thessaloniki. He remembers that day vividly, particularly a conversation one servant said to another, with exhilarated tones hardly able to control: ‘The Turks have incurred the wrath of God! Their sultan and their army has been swallowed whole in a great battle to the east! Now the young sultan comes and begs for peace from the emperor, and our emperor gracefully gave them peace!!' He remebers his father equally excited, placed a right hand on his shoulder, and bid him farewell.



Without understanding the meaning of his new title and the heavy responsibility that follows, Andronikos began his life as despot in the newly established Despotate of Thessaloniki, which as part of the deal the Ottomans made in return for the peace from Romans were returned to Roman hands. The life of a despot is a difficult one. Separated from all his family, and surrounded by unfamiliar faces and places, Andronikos found himself no one to speak to but his mentor and guardian Demetrios Laskaris Leontares. Slowly they bond, later on Andronikos were to find a pen pal in Mystras, Peloponnese, where a renowned scholar named Gemisthus Plethon keeps regular correspondence through letter with Andronikos.



“Your Highness, lord Leontares is waiting for you in the palace.” a guard ran to Andronikos, relaying him the information.



Andronikos follows the guard back into his palace, where Leontares is already standing in the hallway. Once noticed of Andronikos’ presence, he salutes Andronikos with a big smile: “It is good to see you well my despot!”



“Thank you Demetrios, I assume you have come with urgent matter? Is there news from the wall?” Andronikos has noticed Leontares is suited with a military outfit, ready to put on armor anytime, giving gravitas to his presence.



The smile on Leontares’ face slowly fades. “Unfortunately you are right in your assumption. Our guards on the wall have reported the Ottoman have begun to pillage nearby villages, forcing tribute and extracting ransoms from local people.”



“Outrageous! They have no right to trespass into our territory!” Andronikos shouts, protesting loudly for a moment, then fell into silence. With many documents and eye-witness around him, he knows well the barbaric behaviors the Ottoman are capable to execute. Unfortunately for Andronikos, the huge gap of strength between the Turks and the Empire severely limits his option to intervene, a fact that makes him feel disgusted.



“The strong takes what they can, and the weak suffers what they must. Isn’t it right so, Demetrios?”



“We are not without options.” Leontares pauses briefly, then looks at Andronikos confidently: “The reason why the Ottomans are outside our gates, the reason why they started pillaging, is all part of their effort to retrieve our two ‘guests’, especially prince Mustafa. Prince Mustafa as the son of former sultan Bayezid has many sympathisers in the Ottoman court. In right circumstances, he can be utmost desctructive to the current sultan Mehmed, which your father, his Majesty, will utilized to its maximum potential.”



“Therefore, we must be patient. Come with me to the walls, it would be beneficiary for you to witness the Ottoman army with your own eyes.”



Andronikos follows Leontares to the akropolis situated to the north, along the way he encounters many soldiers, most of them local garrison and militias. They have decent morale, yet poor equipments. When he finally arrives at the wall of akropolis, he sees for the first time the presence of Ottoman army. Within his sight he sees countless tents, camps, weapons, horses, wagons, provisions, soldiers in bright armor that perform daily military duties, all organized in a orderly manner.



From afar, he notices a plume of smoke, one of his village is burning.



“Do we have any way to save those villagers?”



“Not at the moment, but if we manage to conclude our negotiation with the Ottomans to our favor, then we could to save the survivors from their dark fates.”



“And when would that be?”



“My Highness, as despot patience is a virtue you must possess.”



"In that case..." Andronikos turns to Leontares, serious in his tone: "As the despot, I command our guards to count the amount of people enslaved by the Ottomans, each day they must report their numbers to me, so we can have accountability when the day for repatriation comes."



Leontares is surprised by the order, it makes him realize Andronikos is no longer the young man weak in his feet, he is now actively asserting his duty as despot. "As you order my despot, I will make sure all numbers are accounted for!"



After giving out the first military command in his life, Andronikos stabilizes his breath and turns his head around and starts obeserving the Ottoman camp. The century of humiliation placed by Ottomans upon his empire, upon his people, and the wanton disregard of Roman lives and property makes Andronikos swear he will fulfill his duty as despot and protect his people as best as he can. Then, he notices an unusually large horse tail banner placed centrally in the Ottoman camp, tilting slightly from left to right.



"Demetrios, how many soldiers do you think they have out there?"



Leontares places his right hand under his chin and says: "By my calculation of the number of wells they have digged, and the plumes of cooking smoke in the last four days, then accounting for a rather large host of horses they brought, I would place their numbers around 8000 infantrymen and 4000 cavalry."



"That is more than all men at arms in the empire. We currently only have 1800 militias in our city, right?" the large number surprises Andronikos a bit.



"Indeed, but we have yet to fully mobilize since we are not at wars with the Ottomans. Though great in their numbers, they lack any siege equipment and would have a very difficult time breaching our walls."



As both men are discussing the preparation for a full mobilization, Andronikos suddenly notices the large banner he saw begins to move, with hundreds of cavalry marching out of the Ottoman main camp.



“This is the banner of sultan Mehmed.” Leontares has also noticed. He observes for a moment, then begins to wonder: “judging from their direction, the sultan is heading north, he has only gotten here four days ago after a long chase, which means something urgent is happening to the north. What could it be…? A revolt by the remnants of Mustafa? An incursion by the Vlachs?”



“Nevertheless, I must find out what is happening, and report to your father.”

 

[Flavius Iulius Nepos]

Chapter I - City of Thessalian Nike



The childhood of Andronikos Palaiologos is unfortunately clouded in mystery. The young prince was separated from his family at the age of eight, to become the nominal Despot of Thessaloniki, under the guardianship of the experience soldier and administrator Demetrios Laskaris Leontares. Unlike his brother Theodoros who received Morea and had to spend his time in cold citadels, Andronikos had the luxury of living in the second largest city of the Empire, though at that time greatly reduced in population, wealth and influence due to years of turmoil and the occupation of Ottomans. However, before the summer of 1416, the young prince is hardly present in any historical records, almost as if he is a phantom. Some correspondence letters between Roman bishops dated from 1430’s mentioned a rare disease that has severely hampered his ability to socialize or partake any important role – a disease seen as punishment of Lord. The theory that Andronikos was influenced by Plethon at a young age, that this young prince was a secret pagan disciple is speculation at best, and only serves as loud-hailer for the wildly and fantastically accusations made by conservative bishops stemming from 1430s and 1440s.



What we can deduct, based on the later achievements of the young prince, is that he most likely would have received a solid military education and had at least some experience in statecraft, a proposition not too farfetched, considering the close relationship the young prince had with his guardian, Leontares.



- Treatise on the political development in early 1400s Balkan, Professor Emeritus Alexandros Lekapenos, Academia Thessalonica, 1899



****************************************************************************


View attachment 711508
Map of city of Thessaloniki



From the Palace of Galerius, a young man in his teens leans his body outside the window, his long pale hair blown by the wind, enjoying the warmth of sunlight. His body is lean, his face delicate and pretty, yet thin and pallid.



From beneath he could hear the noise of conversation and talks on the streets, look at the shapes and outfits of each pedestrian. From afar he could smell the salt in the air stemming from the harbor, and observe the many foreign ships that has docked his port, his city.



For many years he has stuck to his room, perpetually weak in his feet, unable to go out and play or perform his duties, only accompanied by books and letters.



Everything changed a week ago, when he finally felt better for the first time since memory, he felt strength in his legs, and he was able to walk and talk continuously without the need for gasp. By following the instructions of his old pen pal master Plethon’s advice, taking potions sent by the master which claims were made according to the ancient book of magi, he felt better.



A storm passed the shores yesterday, as the saying goes ‘sunshine always follows rain’, the teenager decides for a walk down the street, something he has always feared.



The young man manages to put on some decent clothes, then proceeded down the stairs to the grand hall. Along the way servants bow, in their eyes he can detect surprise and amazement, as they have never seen him walk this freely without assistance.



“Open the door.” The young man orders the guard at the front door, they paused for a moment, then slowly opened the gate.



Standing in the street, seen people passing by, the young man felt excited. Slowly he begins to walk down the street, observing inquisitively the prices of wares at street vendor, the clothes of people, the talks they make – he has always had a responsive ear and eyes.



Slowly, along the way, the memories of the past fly by his mind.



Born Andronikos Palaiologos in 1400, he is the son of Manuel II, the emperor of Romans. He lived in Constantinople in his youth, at the palace of Blachernae, until the age of eight, when he was called upon to become despot of Thessaloniki. He remembers that day vividly, especially one servant commenting: ‘The Turks incurred the wrath of God, their sultan and army obliterated in the East, the begged peace from the Emperor and the Emperor gracefully gave peace.’ The face of the emperor, his father red with excitement, placed his hand on Andronikos, and bid him farewell.



Without knowing anything, Andronikos began his life as despot in the newly established city of Thessaloniki, which as part of the deal Turks made in return for the peace from Romans were returned to Roman hands. The life of a despot is a difficult one. Separated from all his family, and surrounded by unfamiliar faces and places, Andronikos found himself no one to speak to but his mentor and guardian Demetrios Laskaris Leontares. Slowly they bond, later on Andronikos were to find a pen pal in Mystras, Peloponnese, where a renowned scholar named Gemisthus Plethon keeps regular correspondence through letter with Andronikos.



“Your Highness, lord Leontares is waiting in the palace.” a guard ran to Andronikos, relaying him the information.



Andronikos follows the guard back into his palace, where Leontares is already standing in the hallway. Once noticed of Andronikos’ presence, he salutes Andronikos with a big smile: “It is good to see you well!”



“Thank you Demetrios, I assume you have come with some urgent matter?” Andronikos has noticed Leontares is suited with a military outfit, ready to put on armor anytime.



The smile on Leontares’ face slowly fades. “Unfortunately, yes. The Turks have begun to pillage nearby villages, forcing tribute and extracting ransoms from local people.”



“Outrageous! They have no right to trespass into our territory!” Andronikos shouted, protesting loudly for a moment, then fell into silence. Despite his young age, he knows well the behaviors of Turks, and the huge strength gap between the Turks and the Empire. There’s nothing he can do.



“The strong takes what they can, and the weak suffers what they must. Isn’t it right so, Demetrios?”



“We are not without options.” Leontares pauses briefly, then looks at Andronikos confidently: “The reason why the Turks are outside our gates, the reason why they started pillaging, is all part of their effort to retrieve our two ‘guests’. In right circumstances, they are a lethal threat to the Turks, which your father, his Majesty, will utilized to its maximum effect.”



“Therefore, we must be patient. Come with me to the walls, it would be beneficiary for you to witness the Turkish army with your own eyes.”



Andronikos follows Leontares to the walls of Thessaloniki, and in front of him he sees countless tents and camps, Turkish soldiers in bright armor in organized manner, perform daily military duties, from afar, he notices a plume of smoke, one of his village is burning.



“Do we have any options to save those villagers?”



“Not at the moment, but if we manage finish our negotiation with the Turks to our favor, then we could have more options to save them from their dark fates.”



“And when would that be?”



“My Highness, as despot patience is a virtue you must possess.”



Andronikos turns his head around, starring at the largest horse tail banner from Ottoman camp, he clenches his fist. Then he saw the banner begins to move, with hundreds of cavalry following.



“This is the banner of sultan Mehmed.” Leontares has also noticed. He observes for a moment, then begins to comment: “judging from their trail the sultan is heading north, he has only gotten here two days ago, which means something urgent is happening to the north. What could it be…? A revolt? An incursion by the Vlachs?”



“Nevertheless, I must find out what is happening, and report to your father.”

I am enjoying it an I hope you keep going with the story. Not many timelines exploit the POD and characters you are using here. Assuming the empire is successful and somehow survives I wonder how it will fare in the following centuries, considering that it would be just a slightly bigger version of modern day Greece.

 

[Italian Sock Monkey]

I'm very skeptical of any timeline where the ERE survives after the 1341 civil war. After that they were an impotent city state kept alive by the Theodosian Walls and (ironically) Venice. That said I'll see how this plays out.

 

[Truenorth14]

This looks really interesting. I look forward to what will happen in the future.

 

[elerosse]

I have rewrittne Chapter 1 to give a better narrative on the current situation, the next update will discuss the big picture stuff

 

[elerosse]

I'm very skeptical of any timeline where the ERE survives after the 1341 civil war. After that they were an impotent city state kept alive by the Theodosian Walls and (ironically) Venice. That said I'll see how this plays out.

I strive to be as plausible as possible with my TL and narrative, that said, I appreciate very much for any suggestions ppl may provide, to make sure no unintended ABS happens in this TL

 

[elerosse]

I am enjoying it an I hope you keep going with the story. Not many timelines exploit the POD and characters you are using here. Assuming the empire is successful and somehow survives I wonder how it will fare in the following centuries, considering that it would be just a slightly bigger version of modern day Greece.

Modern day Greece and a bit extra is the near maximum of what Romans could reasonably obtain after the first part of this narrative, I have yet set my mind on what the next century will be, hopefully I get the inspirations as this TL progresses.

 

[NotAMyth]

I'm very skeptical of any timeline where the ERE survives after the 1341 civil war. After that they were an impotent city state kept alive by the Theodosian Walls and (ironically) Venice. That said I'll see how this plays out.

I agree with you up to an extent. The centralized, bureaucratic-military state is definitely broken, replaced by semi-feudal governance.
But the nature of the Pre-1453 Ottoman governance provides a clue into why the Romans still have a shot if they can somehow take back their lands. The Ottomans of this period didn't posture as emperors; instead, they displayed themselves as chief ghazis, lords of the frontier of Islam. Their "empire" was still ruled as an occupied province would be, with the local administration being kept intact and functioning, using the threat of occupying garrisons or military settlements nearby. This is much like how the Ummayads ruled Persia during its early days or how the Yuan ruled China.
What this implies is there is still the possibility of an Abbasid Revolution or a Red Turban rebellion, at least until 1453 when the Ottomans changed how they saw themselves and thus changed how they administered those they considered subjects.

 

[Quinkana]

Modern day Greece and a bit extra is the near maximum of what Romans could reasonably obtain after the first part of this narrative, I have yet set my mind on what the next century will be, hopefully I get the inspirations as this TL progresses.

If the Byzantines can get there at 1500-1600 and reform properly (considering the influence from Italy that's a big possibility with both army and navy) there's a huge chance they can get back most of the Balkans and Anatolia (they should be able to assimilate the Bulgars and Albanians) anchoring them at the Taurus mountains and retain the Pontus through the Kommenos dynasty (kingdom of Trebizond) since the pod is 1410s and after that no one powerful enough should be able to take Trebizond down since the Ottomans shatter. If they can ensure they properly assimilate the Bulgars and Albanians into a wider Roman identity they should be able to hold a lot more land which should allow them to secure those lands when nationalism rolls in.

PS: the Roman empire at the Balkans and the Roman empire at the Pontus basically is the Western Eastern Roman Empire and Eastern Eastern Roman Empire lol.

 

[elerosse]

If the Byzantines can get there at 1500-1600 and reform properly (considering the influence from Italy that's a big possibility with both army and navy) there's a huge chance they can get back most of the Balkans and Anatolia (they should be able to assimilate the Bulgars and Albanians) anchoring them at the Taurus mountains and retain the Pontus through the Kommenos dynasty (kingdom of Trebizond) since the pod is 1410s and after that no one powerful enough should be able to take Trebizond down since the Ottomans shatter. If they can ensure they properly assimilate the Bulgars and Albanians into a wider Roman identity they should be able to hold a lot more land which should allow them to secure those lands when nationalism rolls in.

PS: the Roman empire at the Balkans and the Roman empire at the Pontus basically is the Western Eastern Roman Empire and Eastern Eastern Roman Empire lol.

I have similar thoughts in mind, although Turkish presence in Anatolian hinterland is a big obstacle on Roman ambitions in their Eastern Eastern Empire. Also without dominant Ottoman presence, who knows what kind of plans the Mamelukes and Safavids would have. Especially the Safavids, IOTL they have huge influence on the Turcoman/gazi warriors in stretching from Anatolia to Azerbaijan. I would imagine they would play up their influence in the region,

maybe setting a stage for another alt Greco Persian war?

 

[Quinkana]

I have similar thoughts in mind, although Turkish presence in Anatolian hinterland is a big obstacle on Roman ambitions in their Eastern Eastern Empire. Also without dominant Ottoman presence, who knows what kind of plans the Mamelukes and Safavids would have. Especially the Safavids, IOTL they have huge influence on the Turcoman/gazi warriors in stretching from Anatolia to Azerbaijan. I would imagine they would play up their influence in the region.

maybe setting a stage for another alt Greco Persian war?

The Turks will always be a thorn on the side of the Byzantines, that's just going to not change. The Balkans basically becomes the heartlands of Greece espicially as the early modern era rolls in.

Another Greco Persian war would depend on everything in between: basically the Turkic states, Armenians and Trebizond. It'd be fought mostly in the Caucasus methinks.

Ittl I hope we see two Armenian states form (one in the Caucasus the other in Cilicia) which would both be allies of Byzantium while trying to unify. Having the Assyrian Christians have their own state that stretches from Lebanon to Northern Iraq would be a treat to see. But that's centuries in the future.

But back to the present of the tl: I'd really enjoy seeing how the Ottomans lose their empire, and I'd like to see what states are re-established. I think in the Greek majority places there's a huge chance that they get controlled by the Turks, but some Greek states popping out from there would be interesting too.