Darius defends the Cilician gates against Alexander, what could happen?

Cilician gates are in the mountains.
Macedonia is a mountainous country which makes the Macedonians natural experts in the mountainous warfare.
Alexander just left the Balkans where he brilliantly defeated his enemies in the extremely mountainous arrears.
In OTL during the conquest of the Persian Empire Alexander used to astonish the locals by the Macedonian excellence while campaigning in the mountains.

So, my guess, the Macedonians would have come up with some solution to this "Cilician gates problem".
 
The Persian plateau is also very mountainous (it's in the name), so I don't see the Macedonians coming away with a massive advantage here. In fact, the Persians (remnants really, after Gaugamela) proved quite capable of holding up the entire Macedonian army at the Persian Gates several years later and were only defeated after an alternative route was found by the Macedonians (hmm... sounds familiar).

So if the Cilician gates are blocked for an extended time, Alexander is going to be in a lot of trouble.

A knock-on effect of bottling up the Macedonian army in Anatolia is that the Phoenician cities will stay loyal to Persia (not being occupied) and their fleets will continue their offensive on Alexander's supply lines and the strikes on the Ionian cities.
 
In fact, the Persians (remnants really, after Gaugamela) proved quite capable of holding up the entire Macedonian army at the Persian Gates several years later and were only defeated after an alternative route was found by the Macedonians (hmm... sounds familiar).
That's actually what I meant :)
 
Honestly, whilst Alexander COULD just punch his way through the Cicilian Gates with infantry, backed by cavalry and catapults (nomenclature weirdness means this is functionally like a Ballista) - I honestly expect that he'd try and do what Xerxes did to Leonidas - find a mountain path for most of his forces, and swing round for an ambush.

I'm not sure this goes from no-battle to Pyrrhic victory. I think this could lead to actually capturing Darius. The Gates aren't the ONLY way through the Taurus Mountains. Just the best way. Send 3/4 detachments on different routes to allow them to attack Darius from the rear, whilst marching his most armoured troops into the gates, with ballista being fired into the Gates? It'll be ugly, and potentially a slaughter.

Heck, if Alexander can get troops ABOVE the Gates....
 
I don't see him getting his armored units above the gates...
Armor isn't so heavy that it eliminates a well trained soldier's ability to climb. Sure they aren't going up vertical cliffs or hugely steep slopes, but then, very few of the Persians would be able to either. Armor wouldn't be the issue in this case.

Overall, the battle would favor the Macedonian army, especially Alexander's Macedonians because it plays to the strengths of his pike phalanx. Narrow front with no way to get around the long spears would be absolute murder for the more lightly equipped Persians or even their Greek mercenaries because even other Greeks were outreached by the Macedonians. The Persians' best chance at beating the Macedonian Phalanx is in the open field where they can bring their massive numbers to bear and try to outflank the less numerous Macedonians. Though of course they did try that and look where that got them...

This of course assumes there is no time for the Persians to fortify the place. That would work quite well I would imagine.
 
Again, historically narrow passes favored a lightly armored defender even against a heavily armored attacker.

Also, why do the Persians just defend the pass as it was? A few make-shirt towers and wood fortifications would offer some resistance.

That said, the Macedonians are not run-out-of-the-mill Greek-style attackers. They are better. I can imagine them pulling off a victory here, but it's not going to be cheap for them.
 
Cilician gates are in the mountains.
Macedonia is a mountainous country which makes the Macedonians natural experts in the mountainous warfare.
Alexander just left the Balkans where he brilliantly defeated his enemies in the extremely mountainous arrears.
In OTL during the conquest of the Persian Empire Alexander used to astonish the locals by the Macedonian excellence while campaigning in the mountains.

So, my guess, the Macedonians would have come up with some solution to this "Cilician gates problem".
The battle of Cynoscephalae totally showed that the Macedonians are natural experts in mountainous warfare.
 
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The battle of Cynoscephalae totally showed that the Macedonians are natural experts in moutainous warfare.

Now to be fair that's a little different. Alexander's troops had a pretty good track record in mountainous terrain. Also Cynoscephalae is hardly a great example of the Macedonian model of warfare at it's prime - and I feel like the phalanx often had problems against the Romans that it just didn't have against other contemporary rivals - or perhaps the Romans were simply better at exploiting said problems.
 
The battle of Cynoscephalae totally showed that the Macedonians are natural experts in mountainous warfare.
Well, that was looong after Alexander the Great was dead.
The Macedonian armies the Romans met on the fields of battle were different from that of Alexander the Great and his father Phillip, they lost their edge, they lost their flexibility and their ability to fight on a rough mountainous terrain.

I just remembered one more mountainous pass, Alexander the Great had to pass through - it was on his way from Mesopotamia to Iran:
the indegineous warlike mountenareous tribes controlling the passes demanded Alexander the Great to pay them to be allowed to lead his army through; those tribes said that the Persian Achaemenid shahinshahs always paid them to be let through.
Alexander moved his army into these mountains and defeated the mountainous tribes (sorry, cannot recall the names).
 
I don't see him getting his armored units above the gates...

Doesn't need to get armoured units up there. Guys in light kit, with javelins and rocks are perfectly good.

Again, historically narrow passes favored a lightly armored defender even against a heavily armored attacker.

Really? I'd be curious to see evidence of this assertion.

Also, why do the Persians just defend the pass as it was? A few make-shirt towers and wood fortifications would offer some resistance.

Certainly a sensible idea. Although, there is a fortification near the southern entrance - it raises the question of whether the gates have ever simply been walled off before. Some of the points seem natural locations for a solid defensive gate-structure with access to the cliffs above - but I can't recall any permanent fortifications across its width.
 

trajen777

Banned
When heavy infantry goes directly against light infantry face to face the loss of the troops in the light infantry(Persian) would be massive. The Persian advantage was numbers of troops and their focus on Heavy and light cav. In these circumstances the correct Persian (with all of their experience in a Cav oriented army would have been to use light troops to harass Alexander in mountain passes (archers - Jav etc) and try and separate and destroy units. Then meet Alexander in an open battle on a broad plain where their numbers and Cav could outflank them. IN this way you do not go face to face with Alexanders HI with LI (losing proposition) but use the light infantry to harass and meet them in a battle field where they have the advantage with their military tactics.
 
When heavy infantry goes directly against light infantry face to face the loss of the troops in the light infantry(Persian) would be massive. The Persian advantage was numbers of troops and their focus on Heavy and light cav. In these circumstances the correct Persian (with all of their experience in a Cav oriented army would have been to use light troops to harass Alexander in mountain passes (archers - Jav etc) and try and separate and destroy units. Then meet Alexander in an open battle on a broad plain where their numbers and Cav could outflank them. IN this way you do not go face to face with Alexanders HI with LI (losing proposition) but use the light infantry to harass and meet them in a battle field where they have the advantage with their military tactics.
The medieval Bulgarian army,whose infantry was apparently far lightly equipped than the East Roman ones,consistently defeated East Roman infantry in mountainous warfare.As someone else mentioned,the key would be to build barricades.
 
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trajen777

Banned
The medieval Bulgarian army,whose infantry was apparently far lightly equipped than the East Roman ones,consistently defeated East Roman infantry in mountainous warfare.As someone else mentioned,the key would be to build barricades.
That was me on barricades. It only worked for Bulgarians when the trapped byz.. Ie basil 1.
 
That was me on barricades. It only worked for Bulgarians when the trapped byz.. Ie basil 1.
The Bulgarians consistently halted East Roman advances by barricading mountain passes.If the Persians did that,they can at least delay the Macedonians till Darius arrives.Sometimes,the Bulgarians turn it into a complete route when they ambush the East Roman army while they pass through the mountains.
 
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