Danish-Prussian War WI: Government allows the Danish army to retreat from Dybbøl

Inspired by the TV series 1864.

According to wikipedia, "When the Prusso-German army approached the 'Danevirke line', the estuaries and marshes that had been planned to support the flanks were frozen solid in a hard winter and the command of the Danish army disobeyed orders and ordered a full orderly retreat back north to 'the old Dybbøl' and its ill-prepared flank position. There is little doubt that the command of the army did not believe that they could successfully repulse a well-prepared German siege and consequent assault on the Dybbøl position, and assumed that the political level would let the army be evacuated by sea and then fight the war on the principles of the north-south axis strategy.

But the political level did not appreciate the gravity of the situation, insisting on maintaining military presence in Schleswig and at the same time refused more modest German demands of peace. Hence the army was ordered to defend the Dybbøl position 'to the last man', and consequently the siege of Dybbøl began."


With the Prussian victory at Dybbøl, the war was effectively over, and the Prussians eventually overran the entirety of continental Denmark before the armistice.


What if the Danish government had had an attack of common sense and allowed the Danish Army to evacuate Dybbøl before the Prussians arrived? With the Danish Army still intact and on the field, would there have been any noticeable difference in the war? Personally, I believe Denmark never had a chance against both Prussia and Austria.
 
What was the point in fighting if the plan was to abandon the contested territory immediately? :confused:

Not so much abandon the contested territory as defending Jutland along the north-south axis using Denmark's naval supremacy to move the army north-south while trapping an invading army in futile marches between the "flank positions" of Ebeltoft (North), the fortified city of Fredericia (center) and Dybbøl in the south. This would deny the invader the chance of forcing the defenders into a decisive battle, and give the defenders the opportunity to swiftly mass and counter-attack weak enemy positions, besieging forces, or divided forces by shifting weight by sea transport. This would also draw out the war and hence give time and opportunity for the "great powers" to intervene diplomatically—presumably to the advantage of (neutral) Denmark. This was how Denmark was able to win the First Schleswig War.

However, the Danish Army was not allowed to use this plan. Instead, they were ordered to conduct a frontal defence of Jutland on or near the ancient defense line at the Danevirke. As a result, resources were put into the Danevirke line (which then proved to be not only useless but a potential death-trap at winter) at the expense of the flank positions, which were relegated to battlefield fortifications rather than modern fortifications capable of withstanding a modern bombardment.

Long story short, the Danish political leadership was deluded and incompetent as hell, willfully ignoring the warnings and advice of the military.
 
Not so much abandon the contested territory as defending Jutland along the north-south axis using Denmark's naval supremacy to move the army north-south while trapping an invading army in futile marches between the "flank positions" of Ebeltoft (North), the fortified city of Fredericia (center) and Dybbøl in the south. This would deny the invader the chance of forcing the defenders into a decisive battle, and give the defenders the opportunity to swiftly mass and counter-attack weak enemy positions, besieging forces, or divided forces by shifting weight by sea transport. This would also draw out the war and hence give time and opportunity for the "great powers" to intervene diplomatically—presumably to the advantage of (neutral) Denmark. This was how Denmark was able to win the First Schleswig War.

However, the Danish Army was not allowed to use this plan. Instead, they were ordered to conduct a frontal defence of Jutland on or near the ancient defense line at the Danevirke. As a result, resources were put into the Danevirke line (which then proved to be not only useless but a potential death-trap at winter) at the expense of the flank positions, which were relegated to battlefield fortifications rather than modern fortifications capable of withstanding a modern bombardment.

Long story short, the Danish political leadership was deluded and incompetent as hell, willfully ignoring the warnings and advice of the military.



And this is the trouble.

A Conference would presumably have wanted to uphold existing treaties, ie restoring Schleswig's autonomy.

OTOH, it might have accepted division of Schleswig along the linguistic border, ie pretty much what Denmark got after WW1.

Unfortunately, the Danes were offered both of these options OTL - and refused them even when the Austro-Prussians were well into Denmark. A Conference will offer them something, but it won't be enough to satisfy them, and the war will go on.
 
Even with the politicians giving the go ahead of a retreat i won't change much as the retreat will still happen, the one big thing is that General de Meza is not sacked, but if the only change in the politicians is them allowing the retreat but keeping them as incompetent as they were, it won't change much.

Dybbebøl is still an outdated fortification and will be effectively rendered useless by the Prussian rifled artillery. If the politicians stay the same they will order Denmark to fight there, probably ending with de Meza sacked after he orders an retreat (you see a pattern here right ?)

OTL the general in command Georg Gerlach was against staying in the Dybbebøl fortifications, but did as ordered.

The politicians then decided to abandon the last danish fortification Fredericia which actually was a modern, or at least a much stronger position than Dybbebøl.

anyway a small change like that will not change the impossible situation that Denmark was in.

What need to happen is the politicians have to realize that the first Schleswig war was a lucky break and not the great victory they thought it was.

get them to invest in the army and by this i mean spend money on the Fortifications of Fredericia, Dannevirke and Dybbebøl so they won't be turned to rubble by the rifled artillery, proper shelter for the soldiers (Dybbebøl or Dannevirke can't remember which, had WOODEN shelters for the soldiers)

Breech loading rifles for the army would also be a nice addition.

Get a few more ships for the navy so it will be able to effectively blockade the German coast.

In OTL the Prussian though that Denmark would be a tough nut to crack, it was not. But it could have been, with the changes i mentioned you will have 2 modern fortifications to fall back to after the Dannevirke is abandoned, which mean Prussia/Austria is looking at having to storm two fortifications at a horrendous cost, something Austria probably not is willing to. They can't starve the soldiers out since Denmark can supply from the sea, and the Danish soldiers can get relieved easily. Furthermore they will have to spend a lot of manpower if they want to go further north since Denmark can land soldiers on the coast very easy.

If Denmark is holding out maybe the public opinion in Sweden will sway the politicians to send the expedition corpse promised by the king. While Denmark + Sweden-Norway is not able to outright beat Prussia and Austria, i don't believe Prussia and Austria is able to defeat Denmark either.

Bismarck will probably be sacked if no quick victory happens = Butterflies out of this world.

Hope i made sense :p
 
Breech loading rifles for the army would also be a nice addition.
Nice, but not vital. I think I'm right in saying the Danes were using shock tactics (i.e. close in on the enemy position) which play right into the hands of the Prussians and their quickly-firing needle-rifles. However, troops that didn't use these tactics seem to have come off better in battle in 1866. If the Danes had adopted an approach based on lines, skirmishers, and longer-ranged musketry- perhaps inspired by a visit to the British school of musketry at Hythe- they might have performed better against both Prussians and Austrians.
 
Nice, but not vital. I think I'm right in saying the Danes were using shock tactics (i.e. close in on the enemy position) which play right into the hands of the Prussians and their quickly-firing needle-rifles. However, troops that didn't use these tactics seem to have come off better in battle in 1866. If the Danes had adopted an approach based on lines, skirmishers, and longer-ranged musketry- perhaps inspired by a visit to the British school of musketry at Hythe- they might have performed better against both Prussians and Austrians.

definitly, modern forts in Dybbøl and Fredericia is crucial here. with rifled siege artillery, Denmark would be able to actually contest the artillery, making it much harder for Prussia to take the forts
 

Redbeard

Banned
I doubt many if any in Denmark believed the matter could be solved by Denmark decisively defeating the combined forces of Prussia, Austria-Hungary and a number of North German states.

The "strategy" was to achieve a locked situation where the Great Powers would intervene to achieve a lasting political compromise (giving Slesvig to Denmark and Holsten to Germany).

The Danish politicians of course had an obvious point when wishing Danish military presence in the contested lands, but the problem was that this was militarily disastrous. At Dannevirke because the frozen over swamps and Slien fiord would have the position surrounded in no time and at both Dannevirke and Dybbøl because the fortifications (rather field works) there was of little use against modern rifled artillery. If you should hope for an international solution the Danish Army had to stay intact so it could be landed on the Jutland east coast under the protection of the still superior Danish Navy. This would make any enemy presence in Jutland risky and would give a decent chance for some, if not decisive, then flashy military successes. This of course could be utilized in the negotiations.

In this context making a futile stand at Dybbøl in April 1864 was counterproductive for Denmark, but not necessarily decisive. The army actually succeeded in retreating relatively intact to the island of Als. The real problem came in late June 1864 when the Prussians succeeded in crossing the narrow strait between Jutland and Als and decisively defeating the remnants of the Danish Army. The Prussian crossing should have been stopped by the Navy, which actually had a very modern and powerful steamship (Rolf Krake) in the area, but for some reason the captain had decided to patrol somewhere else in the deciding hours.

The negotiations had started in May in London but with the Danish Army effectively out of the game the Danish position collapsed and Prussia took it all.

Had the Prussian crossing to Als been defeated, which it should have (I still haven’t forgiven the Navy), I find it quite likely that a compromise at London could have been found with a border somewhere between the present and the claimed at the Ejder.

Seen from a Danish point of view it of course would have been ideal if the Prussians and their allies could have been repulsed at Dannevirke or Dybbøl, but that would have required a much better prepared army than was the case. First of all rifled artillery and more modern field fortifications. The Government of 1864 and especially the PM has afterwards often been seen as lunatics, I don’t think they were. But they seriously failed in consulting their military about their intended role. But such failings are not lunatic, they’re quite normal.
 
But do the Austro-Prussians really need to take Dybbol?

It is on the Danish side of today's OTL border, so by the time they reach it the A-Ps already hold all Holstein and all the German-speaking parts of Schleswig. In that situation, won't they go over to the defensive and hold out for a "uti possidetis"? And have the Powers any particular reason to reject this? After all, even a Denmark still holding Dybbol is in no position to drive the A-Ps out of what they already hold.
 
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