DAK wins in North Africa and invades Palestine.

It may depend on the year as the Nazis might have been more willing to fill Palestine with skews so long as they had a winning streak in the Middle East that did not rely upon Muslim support.
 
It may depend on the year as the Nazis might have been more willing to fill Palestine with skews so long as they had a winning streak in the Middle East that did not rely upon Muslim support.

That reminds me of one possible way to get this timeline being the Turk's joining the Axis after the fall of France (lets say the Dunkirk is a bust for the British and Turkey decides with France gone and the failure at Dunkirk that the British Empire is now ripe for the picking for them to get their lands back) in which case British forces in Africa and the Middle East could be caught in a planned two sided vice with Palestine falling quite awhile before Wannsee. The Arabs would not be amenable to Jews anywhere on what they viewed as their land, but the Turks by that point in time just might be a different story and in such a time line the Turks not the Arabs would have the say and German offical policy on the Jews at least in that point in time was resettlemet out of Europe not extermination. So, you are right the year here and alot of other factors matter. The forces in Germany supporting relocation not liquidation could win out in such a timeline, but its not a given.
 
Last edited:
The Grand Mufti's all Muslim Handzar division.

There was no such thing.

The "Handschar" Division was recruited among Bosniak Moslems. It was a project of some Bosniaks, who were tired of being murdered by Croatian Ustashe and Serbian Chetniks. They wanted to have some Bosniak troops, and the only way to do that was under German aegis, as an SS "foreign legion".

However, there were not enough Bosniak volunteers for a division, so the Handschar was filled out with Croats. The quality of the recruits was very poor, and the Handschar was notorious for bad discipline and drunkeness, until it was disbanded as useless.

As for the "Grand Mufti": I assume you mean Haj Amin el-Husseini, Mufti of Jerusalem. The Nazis attempted to use him as a sort of generalized Moslem attractor, with very little success. He was just the local Moslem clerical chief in Palestine. He had no more influence among Bosniaks than a random Lutheran Bishop from Finland would have among Ulster Presbyterians.
 
I am well aware it was a trainwreck, but expect far more Arabs to end up filling its ranks then 'Bosniak Moslems' in a 1942 U.S. not in the war and Britian losing the war timeline... the ideas for Islamic SS foreign legions was a product in no small part built upon Himmler liking the Grand Mufti and seeing moslems as potental warriors in his anti-Jewish crusade. This would obviously be greater and Himmler would be able to include far more Arabs in the project of SS foreign legions if the Arabs successfully rise up across the Middle East and help to lead to a German/Italian victory.

I didn't say sending the Grand Mufti there with 'helpers' would work out or do little more then cause mass murder and a full blown civil war in Palestine.
 
Last edited:
Had Rommel won First Alamein he might well have taken Egypt perhaps with the aid of Egyptian nationalists exploiting the chaos. At this point the Germans may invade Malta and secure the supply lanes preparatory toinvading Palestine in the early autumn of 1942. 8th Army will have regrouped by now and meetes Rommelonthe border but may well beforced backto a line defending Jerusalem where the Afrika Korps is stopped ina manner similar to Second Alamein. The Torch invasion is re-routed around outh Africa and invades Egypt via the Red Sea in combination with an 8th Army offensive in, say, late October 1942. The Afrika Korps is forced to fall back but a large paert is cut off and destroyed in the Battle of the Nile i January 1943. Thhe remainder are pursued and destroyed as theyretreat through Egypt and KLibya. The campaign ends in May 1943 in the Battle of Tripoli when the remains of the Afrika Korps, now under the command of von Arnim (Rommel was invalided back to Germany) are finally surrounded and forced tosurrender,
 
In 1941-42 the SS wasn't nearly as big, as influential, or as firmly entrenched as it became in '42-44, so I'd think a regular Army guy.

I doubt it somehow - the Wehrmacht leadership in the Middle East in the aftermath of Rommel's victory would have been largely irrelevant, as it was the Warthegau and General-Gouvernement.

someone like Greiser, Globocnik, or Streicher would have been Reichsgauleiter or Reichkommisar, and they would have overseen the extermination of the semitic population - the Muslim and Christians would have been disposed of along with the Jews I suspect...

the oil refineries in Palestine, the Kirkuk-Haifa pipeline and the Suez Canal would be too vital to leave in non-Aryan hands...
 
As noted, it would appear that Rommel took steps to protect Jewish populations in North Africa from pogroms by both the SS and local Arabs. However, it might be a stretch to attribute this to a particularly high moral and ethical standard. It is just as likely he saw such actions as a needless diversion in a combat theatre he never fully controlled and would not want to encourage violence and lawlessness among his troops or sympatheic local allies - lawlessness that would affect the discipline of his own Afrika Korps. Rommel did pride himself on his forces' generally disciplined adherence to the geneva convention, and he would probably have looked at the treatment of civilians in the same light. Also, Africa was a side show in which, technically at least, the Italians were equal if not primary partners. Even the most brutal and doctrinaire Nazi might find it wise not to start Jew-killing as soon as he could.

Had Rommel actually been able to actually cross Suez and enter Palestine in some sort of "Axis wins or draws" scenario, I have no doubt that the Nazis would attempt to put their plans for the Middle East (including the elimination of the Jews) into practice, and Rommel would be unlikely to or unable to resist this. He would either continue in command of the theatre and become the "Butcher of Palestine" to the Allies or be "promoted" to another theatre where he was not in the way.
 
To be fair, if Hitler absolutely, positively wants to kill the Jews of Palestine NOW and Rommel makes too much of a stink about it, he can always be relieved and sent elsewhere. IIRC Hitler relieved either Manstein or Guderian for an extended period for some reason.

Guderian's first relief was him being one of the proponents of the super disasterous typhoon offensive (and rightly so; you can't be a gigantic abrasive douche AND fail)

His second relief was for telling Hitler over and over again that he he was fucking up the war and it would be better if he (Guderian) was left in charge of it)

Manstein's relief was along the lines of
Hitler: You did a really good job planning to break the Kaments pocket I am proud of you and happy that I listened to you instead of Hube
Manstein: Thank you my fuhrer, and say you know since you said I did a good job and you are so busy with your many many offices it might be a good idea to appoint a generalissimo to run the war... why if you think I am doing such a good job maybe I could do that for you; what do you think

you can guess hitler's reaction to that idea


people not with the program were relieved and lionized hero or not Rommel would be sent home if he became obstructionist beyond Hitler's patience
 
Rommel had two replacements at various times in Africa when he was sick. The thing is Rommel said the only replacement that should come would be Guderian, but instead Hitler sent lesser generals that botched things up even worse. People sometimes forget during the second battle of el alamein Rommel was dragged out of his hospital bed to take command during the battle as the commander there botched things up and then had a heart attack and died.

The 8th Army would have to have been pretty much crushed and the U.S. not in the war in this timeline by the way.

Arnim and Stumme were not lessor generals; they were highly decorated panzer commanders with years of experience on the eastern front
 
Arnim and Stumme were not lessor generals; they were highly decorated panzer commanders with years of experience on the eastern front

I am not arguing they weren't quite competent, I am that Guderian would have been a better pick then either of them.

I consider say Von Paulus a quite competent general, but militarily speaking Rommel probably would have been in a better position in his last role. Especially given he wouldn't have stoically sacrified his Army Group on the basis of stupid orders if things fell apart. In terms of Africa Von Paulus might have been better off strictly from a military POV there as Rommel couldn't accept his mission there was from the German High Command's POV a unglorified holding action until they beat Russia. Then again Paulus might have held his position too long and gotten his ass kicked earlier. These things are hard to say.

But, in terms of armored warfare my point was Guderian would have been the best choice as a replacement for Rommel in Africa in my view not Arnim or Stumme.
 
Last edited:
Top