D-Day Stopped by Earlier Introduction of the V-1

[eltf177]

I just finished reading John Keegan's INTELLIGENCE IN WAR: KNOWLEDGE OF THE ENEMY FROM NAPOLEON TO AL-QUEDA (2003). In Chapter Eight: Human Intelligence and Secret Weapons he has this paragraph:

"Had [the V-1] been given priority, and been mass-produced in large numbers during 1943, there is little doubt that the flying bomb would have caused terrible damage to London and other southern British cities; it might even have so disrupted shipping in British southern ports as to have set back or even prevented the launching of the cross-Channel invasion in June 1944."

It's an interesting thought, but given the extreme inaccuracy of the FZG-76 (something like a CEP of one mile) I don't see this happening. Yes, you can aim them at a port city and probably hit it (assuming its not shot down), but hitting any specific target is going to be by chance only.

I see the AA/Balloon Barrier being created earlier and more fighters being kept back for anti-Buzz Bomb protection. I don't see heavy bombers being sent after the launch sites, instead I see medium bombers (B-25 "Mitchell's" and B-26 "Marauder's") being used together with P-47 "Thunderbolt's" armed with 500 or 1000 lb bombs on opportunity sweeps along the coast. At worst I see the invasion pushed back 6-8 weeks.

Any thoughts?

 

[Pangur]

The first and biggest issue is that V-1 was far from accurate- they pointed them at London and let rip. London was big enough for it to hit some part pof that city. To be able to create real problems the V-1 would have to have had to have been able to hit with in 500m of its target, With that accuracy then yes, if turned on the Channel ports and the Normandy beaches it would caused massive problems. As a secondary point, a more powerful warhead would have been required

 

[Black]

If they could somehow get several thousand even with the accuracy problems it would still cause a lot of problems.

Though that would be really difficult as well.

 

[eltf177]

Agreed, a far better order of accuracy is required - which you can't get with such a crude, cheap weapon.

In order to get the V-1's in action earlier what program or programs get cancelled or pushed back? And the raw materials have to come from somewhere, what other production gets suspended for V-1 production?

 

[Pangur]

Agreed, a far better order of accuracy is required - which you can't get with such a crude, cheap weapon.

In order to get the V-1's in action earlier what program or programs get cancelled or pushed back? And the raw materials have to come from somewhere, what other production gets suspended for V-1 production?

You have put your finger on another issue that gets raised quite a lot when a thread like this gets opened - what get stopped/pushed back for project X to more successful

The V1 got the go ahead in late 1939 on the basis of a 1936 design. What I don't know is just how much the 1936 design differed from the production V1. There is your first issue - you need a later design - maybe the 1936 design gets into production and the guidance issues are found early. What gets dropped? The ME210 was a mess, so that would be one way however you still need to free up the right resources - The Argus As 292 if pushed harder may have give the required experience so that can't be cut to get you where you want. So what you need is a dead duck rocket project that started in say 1939

 

[Beedok]

Agreed, a far better order of accuracy is required - which you can't get with such a crude, cheap weapon.

In order to get the V-1's in action earlier what program or programs get cancelled or pushed back? And the raw materials have to come from somewhere, what other production gets suspended for V-1 production?

Cutting back the V-2 might be a good idea.

 

[Pangur]

Cutting back the V-2 might be a good idea.

Not so sure about that as they were two different weapons with different technologies

 

[Michel Van]

the V1 aka Fieseler Fi 103 was the first "cruise missile" and easy to build
but had two major disadvantage:
it needed launch catapults or be drop from Aircraft.
it had no guidance computer, only a simple autopilot, it just flight Keep straight on.
Until it run out of fuel then it falls from sky, not very accurate for Weapon against Military installation.

I have serious doubts on John Keegan, claim about massive use of V1 could have disrupted D-Day...

 

[Shaby]

I have serious doubts on John Keegan, claim about massive use of V1 could have disrupted D-Day...

Maybe if the Germans produced literally 10s of thousands of the buggers and launched them rather indiscriminately on the South Eastern Anglia?

 

[Sior]

The Germans used V1's and V2's against Amsterdam and failed to close the port!

 

[LostCosmonaut]

Not so sure about that as they were two different weapons with different technologies

True, but the V-2/A4 did tie up a metric fuckton of money and resources which could have been used elsewhere. Also, I'm sure the brainpower of Von Braun and other rocket scientists would still have been useful in the V-1 program.

 

[HMS Warspite]

The "Vergeltungswaffen" were not to be mistaken as military weapons, but as weapons of terror, which indicated that their influence was not military in nature, but primarily political. Even if by some quirck of fate the V-1 and V-2 weapons were available prior to D-Day, it made no difference, as these weapons were of no consequense to threaten the invasion itself. At best a fighter squadron of the RAF less during the D-Day operations, to operate against the V-1's, but compared to the more than 10,000 aircraft already scheduled for the invasion, that would not be felt hard.

 

[HMS Warspite]

The Germans used V1's and V2's against Amsterdam and failed to close the port!

Amsterdam was never liberated during the war and remained occupied by German forces, until Germany capitulated. I assume you mentioned Antwerp, which was attacked by V-1's and also V-2's, both launched from Occupied Holland, mainly in the region around 's Gravenhage (The Hague).

 

[Sior]

Amsterdam was never liberated during the war and remained occupied by German forces, until Germany capitulated. I assume you mentioned Antwerp, which was attacked by V-1's and also V-2's, both launched from Occupied Holland, mainly in the region around 's Gravenhage (The Hague).

Sorry typing without grey matter engaged!

 

[Michel Van]

Even with no V2 production and all that resources put in V1 production of zillion units
it have still same problems.
The V1 had no guidance computer, it hit something random at end of flight range.

 

[Jukra]

Even with no V2 production and all that resources put in V1 production of zillion units
it have still same problems.
The V1 had no guidance computer, it hit something random at end of flight range.

One might assume that a few gyros might have been produced with all the V2 effort... or JATO bottle equivalents for mobile launch.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

I just finished reading John Keegan's INTELLIGENCE IN WAR: KNOWLEDGE OF THE ENEMY FROM NAPOLEON TO AL-QUEDA (2003). In Chapter Eight: Human Intelligence and Secret Weapons he has this paragraph:

"Had [the V-1] been given priority, and been mass-produced in large numbers during 1943, there is little doubt that the flying bomb would have caused terrible damage to London and other southern British cities; it might even have so disrupted shipping in British southern ports as to have set back or even prevented the launching of the cross-Channel invasion in June 1944."

It's an interesting thought, but given the extreme inaccuracy of the FZG-76 (something like a CEP of one mile) I don't see this happening. Yes, you can aim them at a port city and probably hit it (assuming its not shot down), but hitting any specific target is going to be by chance only.

I see the AA/Balloon Barrier being created earlier and more fighters being kept back for anti-Buzz Bomb protection. I don't see heavy bombers being sent after the launch sites, instead I see medium bombers (B-25 "Mitchell's" and B-26 "Marauder's") being used together with P-47 "Thunderbolt's" armed with 500 or 1000 lb bombs on opportunity sweeps along the coast. At worst I see the invasion pushed back 6-8 weeks.

Any thoughts?

https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=260717
I started something similar a while back, so perhaps this might help answer your question.

Short answer, no, it was not accurate enough to hit the ports, but it could have caused Britain a ton of problems leading up to the invasion that may delay D-Day to the point where it has to wait until 1945.

 

[MattII]

The issue of accuracy will be further exacerbated by the fact that Germany was relying on its 'spies' to tell them where the things had landed much of the time, and as with V2 later, these spies fed false information back.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

The issue of accuracy will be further exacerbated by the fact that Germany was relying on its 'spies' to tell them where the things had landed much of the time, and as with V2 later, these spies fed false information back.

If the rocket comes online in 1943 they still have some aerial recon capability so don't need to rely on spies and can potential reassess their authenticity in relation to their photo recon work. Of course that is gone by 1944....

 

[Michel Van]

One might assume that a few gyros might have been produced with all the V2 effort... or JATO bottle equivalents for mobile launch.

they not try JATO
they try Air launches from Bomber
and Porsche proposed disposable Jet Engine for V1 at end of war.

They used first time gyros* on V2 missile for stable launch, but the accuracy was miserable

on V1 they study a radio guide system for V1 at begin of war, but abandon the idea because the british could jammed the radio-signal.


*= Gyroscopes to determine direction by Müller-type pendulous gyroscopic accelerometer for engine cutoff