D-Day in Southern France

I don't know if this has been discussed before, but if it hasn't, then what if in June 1944 the Allies decided to put all their troops in Southern France instead of having main landings at Normandy and supplementary landings in Southern France?
 
IMO it can't happen because 1) it's too far away from the vital areas of France (ports, HQ's and capitals) 2) the only important thing in the South is probably Marseille. Also where would they go from there? The Germans would move in on them fast, pull forces away from Italy.
 
IMO it can't happen because 1) it's too far away from the vital areas of France (ports, HQ's and capitals) 2) the only important thing in the South is probably Marseille. Also where would they go from there? The Germans would move in on them fast, pull forces away from Italy.

Marseille, Toulon, and, stretching west, Bordeaux would be the prize. Not bad, but strategically you cannot cut German forces from the Reich by moving exclusively from the south, unless Hitler actively helps you by ordering another Stillstand order.

You can forget about a counter-offensive from Italy if the Allies capture the passes in the Alps. They'd be pretty much impassable. After the initial strategic surprise (which would be hard to obtain anyway), the Germans would use their secure Normandy/Pas de Calais front to bring reserves and stabilize the front before Paris can be reached.
 
A joint operation in S. France will happen over Churchill's cooling corpse. He was opposed to the southern France landings even as a supplemental attack.

Perhaps given less Allied co-operation and co-ordination the US might choose to do the landing on its own; bases in N. Africa were as close to S. France as some of the amphibious staging areas in the Pacific were. It would mean pulling assets like APAs and CVs from the Pacific, but it COULD be done in 1944.
 

Cook

Banned
Perhaps given less Allied co-operation and co-ordination the US might choose to do the landing on its own...

The Americans wanted to do the short route via North West France from the start and needed considerable persuasion that it was a) not feasible in 1942 b) that the Mediterranean could be anything other than a distraction and waste of recourses.


An American landing on their own anywhere in Europe prior to 1944 would be limited since the British constituted the bulk of forces until that time.
 

Cook

Banned
Is this supposed to be other than OTL Operation Dragoon?

Yes, Whanztastic, or a Supersized Dragoon/Anvil without Overlord.

The British were against Dragoon because it took troops away from Italy, Montgomery thought it only merited a single division and had wanted the shipping used for more troops to Normandy instead.

The Americans were in favour of it because they believed the additional port and rail facilities would be required after the breakout from Normandy. They did not consider it as an alternative to Overlord.

You can assume that Operation Fortitude would still take place and the Forces in Northern France and Belgium mostly stay there.
 
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The Americans wanted to do the short route via North West France from the start and needed considerable persuasion that it was a) not feasible in 1942 b) that the Mediterranean could be anything other than a distraction and waste of recourses.


An American landing on their own anywhere in Europe prior to 1944 would be limited since the British constituted the bulk of forces until that time.

Agreed. No matter how you do it, to meet the OP someone has to change their mind. I figure that's more likely for the US to do (perhaps MacArthur is transferred to the ETO and decides that the southern beaches are more photogenic for him to wade ashore on) than the UK.
 

CalBear

Moderator
Donor
Monthly Donor
The Allies lacked the logistical lift to put troops into France in sufficient D-Day sized numbers if they moved in from the Med. Huge difference in crossing the Channel to crossing a Sea.

The Allies would also have been unable to provide air cover in sufficient quantity. The D-Day landings beaches were dictated by the range of fighters flying out of England. To provide reasonable loiter time over the landing zones you have to be within 150 miles of the air bases being used for the fighters (this is especially true for the slightly older marks of the Spitfire), As soon as you break 150 miles you now have to start swapping weapons for extra fuel tanks. You also create a situation where sortie cycles are seriously stretched out probably reducing possible missions per aircraft by at least 1/3 if not in half.

You could correct for some of this if you moved TF 38/58, TF 77 and 7th Fleet's 'phibs out of the Pacific into the Med, but you would also need to find a new CNO beause any such move would have been over Admiral King's dead body. The Med is also a bit tight for operations of 20 fast carriers and their escorts (not to mention the impact on the war against Japan).
 
The Allies lacked the logistical lift to put troops into France in sufficient D-Day sized numbers if they moved in from the Med. Huge difference in crossing the Channel to crossing a Sea.

The Allies would also have been unable to provide air cover in sufficient quantity. The D-Day landings beaches were dictated by the range of fighters flying out of England. To provide reasonable loiter time over the landing zones you have to be within 150 miles of the air bases being used for the fighters (this is especially true for the slightly older marks of the Spitfire), As soon as you break 150 miles you now have to start swapping weapons for extra fuel tanks. You also create a situation where sortie cycles are seriously stretched out probably reducing possible missions per aircraft by at least 1/3 if not in half.

You could correct for some of this if you moved TF 38/58, TF 77 and 7th Fleet's 'phibs out of the Pacific into the Med, but you would also need to find a new CNO beause any such move would have been over Admiral King's dead body. The Med is also a bit tight for operations of 20 fast carriers and their escorts (not to mention the impact on the war against Japan).
mebbe no. Divert some cvl/cve's maybe??
 
mebbe no. Divert some cvl/cve's maybe??

The USN only had a handful of CVLs, and they were part of the main carrier task force in the Pacific. CVEs were doing missions ranging from convoy escort to ASW hunting to... amphibious invasion support in the Pacific. They were busy.

As a number of posters have noted (myself included, as well as CalBear who you replied to) the US had the assets to do this... if they stripped the Pacific theater. This was unlikely, to say the least.
 

Cook

Banned
The Allies lacked the logistical lift to put troops into France in sufficient D-Day sized numbers if they moved in from the Med. Huge difference in crossing the Channel to crossing a Sea.

This bit is the key to what Cal’s saying.
 
This bit is the key to what Cal’s saying.

Yes, but read the 3rd paragraph of the same post. They lacked the resources in theater. In June of 1944 the US had in the PTO:

48 APA (min 1,000 troops ea)
15 AKA
20 APD
3 AGC
9 LSD
186 LCI
135 LST
105 LSM
over 4,000 landing craft

Add the assets in the Atlantic (very few large ships, but lots of mid-sized landing craft that could handle a Med crossing) and yes, it is possible.

At least 10 fleet carriers (USS Saratoga CV03, Enterprise CV06, Essex CV09, Yorktown CV10, Intrepid CV11, Hornet CV12, Franklin CV13, Lexington CV16, Bunker Hill CV17, Wasp CV18) are theoretically available for planning purposes, and a few more (USS Ticonderoga CV14 commissioned 5/8/44 and USS Hancock CV19 commissioned 4/15/44) are working up. All nine Independence-class CVLs are available. Some 40 CVEs were in commission and worked up by that point, though many would be busy elsewhere. Figure 1,500+ carrier-based aircraft at a guess. 20 BB are theoretically available for NGF (12 old and 8 new).

The logistics would be a pain, but doable. Of course, the Germans couldn't fail to miss preparations on that scale and while the IJN was down at that point it wasn't yet out.

So it WOULDN'T have been done (ASB-level wouldn't), but it COULD have been done.
 
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