so if the Allies never open a second front in Europe (well France) and its more or less Americans+UK fighting in Italy and the USSR fighting through Eastern Europe, what would post War Europe (and the world) look like?
so if the Allies never open a second front in Europe (well France) and its more or less Americans+UK fighting in Italy and the USSR fighting through Eastern Europe, what would post War Europe (and the world) look like?
The fighting in Italy is likely to go nowhere anytime soon. The Germans don't really need Southern Italy back but stopping the Soviets from taking East Prussia and crushing Army Group Center would probably be a good idea
Post war Europe? Depends on how "Fatherland VS Mother Russian, The Final Showdown!" works out.
Red from Atlantic to Pacific?
Greater Germany from same to same?
Or a post-negotiated peace German Europe glaring across an Iron Curtain equivalent at The Red Menace along a ceasfire line somewhere in Eastern Europe/Ukraine?
Or perhaps they go with a plan that I believe Churchill recommended, which was an invasion of the Balkans which would both 1) cut off German oil supplies and 2) deny the Soviets control over the area.
That could run the risk of starting a war with the Soviets, who would probably see it as as the W. Allies siding with the Germans (or at the least pissing the Soviets off by stealing territory that they feel belongs to the USSR).
New thought: What if after the UK and/or US invades the Balkans, the Soviets make a seperate peace with the Germans and turn East, leaving the W. Allies to fend for themselves?
I doubt the Soviets making peace after they drove out the Germans off Stalingrad. Maybe have them defeated at several major battles and you may have negotiations.
the USSR is not going to sign a seperate peace. this was revenge. even without a second front the Germans are still running out men and resources.
It absolutely was revenge, but the USSR was running out too. Lend/Lease was supplying a very large proportion of their supply needs in many categories, and I seem to recall hearing that even the Soviets were getting close to the end of their manpower by the end.
The critical issue will be whether the western allies keep on supporting the USSR, especially with supplies but ideally by tying down German forces in other areas as well. If they do that, we might see Europe go red. If they don't, then I don't know if the Soviets have enough to go all the way to the English Channel even though it was a revenge fight.
This is pretty likely.Bleh.
the USSR is not going to sign a seperate peace. this was revenge. even without a second front the Germans are still running out men and resources.
The German still lose the Romanian oil fields Berlin still falls in 1945. it is an open question whether Hitler dies there or goes west to a new capital.
The Western Allies still have Southern Italy and probaly fight thier way north. a South France invasion probably also takes place. its important to remember even if a D-Day landing fails the western allies still have all the manpower than now WONT be sent through Normandy. That manpower goes to the Medeterrenaan now.
The European war ends in 1946 with the Iron curtian being on the rhine and the alps.
Unlikely.That could run the risk of starting a war with the Soviets, who would probably see it as as the W. Allies siding with the Germans (or at the least pissing the Soviets off by stealing territory that they feel belongs to the USSR).
New thought: What if after the UK and/or US invades the Balkans, the Soviets make a seperate peace with the Germans and turn East, leaving the W. Allies to fend for themselves?
I agree with the first part, but not the second.Personally, I think the Soviets would be stopped eventually. Without the Western Allies tying down German forces in the west, the Germans have more men/equipment to work with, and can trade space for time. The Soviets will most likely sign a seperate peace grudgingly before turning east much sooner than in OTL, resulting in clashes with the UK/US, who might be inclined to support Germany as a buffer zone against the Soviet Union.
Personally, I think the Soviets would be stopped eventually. Without the Western Allies tying down German forces in the west, the Germans have more men/equipment to work with, and can trade space for time.
If the W. Allies drop out completely like one or two people said Germany has a small chance. They'd lose everything right to the German border and maybe a little more, but if they can bleed the Soviets harder than they did OTL it may force Stalin to make peace.Not really. The Bulk of the Wehrmacht was fighting on the eastern front anyways and troops for garrison duty were still needed in the west, not to mention that the combat quality of many of those divisions was rather questionable (OK for fighting la resistance, but against Russian T-34... not so much) and maybe 10% more troops against the Soviets won't change too much about the final outcome.
If the W. Allies drop out completely like one or two people said Germany has a small chance. They'd lose everything right to the German border and maybe a little more, but if they can bleed the Soviets harder than they did OTL it may force Stalin to make peace.
The Soviets weren't just scraping the bottom of the barrel by the end they had broken the barrel.