D-day fails, what does the post world look like?

so if the Allies never open a second front in Europe (well France) and its more or less Americans+UK fighting in Italy and the USSR fighting through Eastern Europe, what would post War Europe (and the world) look like?
 
Churchil gone, maybe Roosvelt too.

so if the Allies never open a second front in Europe (well France) and its more or less Americans+UK fighting in Italy and the USSR fighting through Eastern Europe, what would post War Europe (and the world) look like?

The western alliance might not survive the failure, and therefore the Soviets would have to think about making a seperate peace.

Winston Churchill, as British Prime Minister, could be replaced by vote of his parliamentary party after a no-confidence vote in parliament. That takes all of a day when something really bad has happened. A lot of British politicians thought he was leading Britain to disaster and and had tried to organise a replacement, including an Australian future Prime Minister Robert Menzies.

President Roosvelt had kept his job after a series of military disasters in the Pacific. Sending the military resources many said could have prevented those disasters to Europe under the Germany First policy would come back to haunt him now that the great much heralded Invasion has failed and the Army and its best units were being paraded through Berlin. Not an impeachable offence as far as I know but cries for him to resign and the men, ships, planes etc be sent to the Pacific might drown out rational debate.

Post-D Day disaster Britain under a new Prime Minister who might easily be having second thoughts about whether continuing was worth it. Particularly if he was one of those who talked about "... replacing a Nazi state from the North Sea to the Urals with a Soviet state from the Urals to the North Sea..." as a meaningless change from the viewpoint of British National Interest.:(

So it's mid-June 1944. The western alliance is in a state of political paralysis following the military disaster. The French Resistance, which made an all out effort to support the invasion, is being crushed ruthlessly by the limited German infantry force left there as all other units are sent east to deal with the Soviets. Stalin is holding urgent meetings with his generals on whether they have just been handed the keys to ALL Europe or is Germany going to be fighting a one front war now and what does that imply for the Red Army:eek:

The fighting in Italy is likely to go nowhere anytime soon. The Germans don't really need Southern Italy back but stopping the Soviets from taking East Prussia and crushing Army Group Center would probably be a good idea:cool:

Post war Europe? Depends on how "Fatherland VS Mother Russian, The Final Showdown!" works out.

Red from Atlantic to Pacific?

Greater Germany from same to same?

Or a post-negotiated peace German Europe glaring across an Iron Curtain equivalent at The Red Menace along a ceasfire line somewhere in Eastern Europe/Ukraine?
 
Last edited:
The fighting in Italy is likely to go nowhere anytime soon. The Germans don't really need Southern Italy back but stopping the Soviets from taking East Prussia and crushing Army Group Center would probably be a good idea:cool:

Post war Europe? Depends on how "Fatherland VS Mother Russian, The Final Showdown!" works out.

Red from Atlantic to Pacific?

Greater Germany from same to same?

Or a post-negotiated peace German Europe glaring across an Iron Curtain equivalent at The Red Menace along a ceasfire line somewhere in Eastern Europe/Ukraine?

my guess is the UK largely pulls out every where but on paper, the US keeps fighting in Italy and bombing Europe around the clock, but nether the UK nor the US will try anything, I think we see UK and US turn East, things are rough there but victory is clearly coming, as far as the USSR making peace... NEVER they'd fight all the way to the Spanish border if they needed to.
 
Japan is likely put under a harsher peace. A vengeful Roosevelt might throw everything he has into strangling the Japanese as soon as possible so he can boast he won a war and doesn't go down in the books as the Prez Who Blew It.
 
Personally, I think the Soviets would be stopped eventually. Without the Western Allies tying down German forces in the west, the Germans have more men/equipment to work with, and can trade space for time. The Soviets will most likely sign a seperate peace grudgingly before turning east much sooner than in OTL, resulting in clashes with the UK/US, who might be inclined to support Germany as a buffer zone against the Soviet Union.
 

Wolfpaw

Banned
Churchill and Roosevelt I can see getting thrown out. The US turns its focus to the Pacific, but the Western Allies aren't going to just give up on opening another front.

I predict we'd see something akin to
Operation Dragoon being launched with the Rhône Valley turning into a bloody quagmire as Anglo-American troops grind north.

Or perhaps they go with a plan that I believe Churchill recommended, which was an invasion of the Balkans which would both 1) cut off German oil supplies and 2) deny the Soviets control over the area.
 
Or perhaps they go with a plan that I believe Churchill recommended, which was an invasion of the Balkans which would both 1) cut off German oil supplies and 2) deny the Soviets control over the area.

That could run the risk of starting a war with the Soviets, who would probably see it as as the W. Allies siding with the Germans (or at the least pissing the Soviets off by stealing territory that they feel belongs to the USSR).
New thought: What if after the UK and/or US invades the Balkans, the Soviets make a seperate peace with the Germans and turn East, leaving the W. Allies to fend for themselves?
 
That could run the risk of starting a war with the Soviets, who would probably see it as as the W. Allies siding with the Germans (or at the least pissing the Soviets off by stealing territory that they feel belongs to the USSR).
New thought: What if after the UK and/or US invades the Balkans, the Soviets make a seperate peace with the Germans and turn East, leaving the W. Allies to fend for themselves?

I doubt the Soviets making peace after they drove out the Germans off Stalingrad. Maybe have them defeated at several major battles and you may have negotiations.
 
Bleh.

the USSR is not going to sign a seperate peace. this was revenge. even without a second front the Germans are still running out men and resources.

The German still lose the Romanian oil fields Berlin still falls in 1945. it is an open question whether Hitler dies there or goes west to a new capital.

The Western Allies still have Southern Italy and probaly fight thier way north. a South France invasion probably also takes place. its important to remember even if a D-Day landing fails the western allies still have all the manpower than now WONT be sent through Normandy. That manpower goes to the Medeterrenaan now.

The European war ends in 1946 with the Iron curtian being on the rhine and the alps.
 
I doubt the Soviets making peace after they drove out the Germans off Stalingrad. Maybe have them defeated at several major battles and you may have negotiations.

I was primarily thinking about the Soviets creating a seperate peace with the Germans as a sort of revenge against the W. Allies for not creating a second front, and instead invading the Balkans. This way the Soviets just wait for the Germans and Allies in the Balkans to duke it out (probably a month or two at least), all the while resting his forces before moving in to wipe out anybody left.
 
the USSR is not going to sign a seperate peace. this was revenge. even without a second front the Germans are still running out men and resources.

It absolutely was revenge, but the USSR was running out too. Lend/Lease was supplying a very large proportion of their supply needs in many categories, and I seem to recall hearing that even the Soviets were getting close to the end of their manpower by the end.
The critical issue will be whether the western allies keep on supporting the USSR, especially with supplies but ideally by tying down German forces in other areas as well. If they do that, we might see Europe go red. If they don't, then I don't know if the Soviets have enough to go all the way to the English Channel even though it was a revenge fight.
 
It absolutely was revenge, but the USSR was running out too. Lend/Lease was supplying a very large proportion of their supply needs in many categories, and I seem to recall hearing that even the Soviets were getting close to the end of their manpower by the end.
The critical issue will be whether the western allies keep on supporting the USSR, especially with supplies but ideally by tying down German forces in other areas as well. If they do that, we might see Europe go red. If they don't, then I don't know if the Soviets have enough to go all the way to the English Channel even though it was a revenge fight.

I seem to remember reading somewhere that Stalin had told Zhukov and Konev that they had to take Berlin and crush the Wermacht during the 1945 campaigning season, as their manpower reserves were all but diminished.
 
Bleh.

the USSR is not going to sign a seperate peace. this was revenge. even without a second front the Germans are still running out men and resources.

The German still lose the Romanian oil fields Berlin still falls in 1945. it is an open question whether Hitler dies there or goes west to a new capital.

The Western Allies still have Southern Italy and probaly fight thier way north. a South France invasion probably also takes place. its important to remember even if a D-Day landing fails the western allies still have all the manpower than now WONT be sent through Normandy. That manpower goes to the Medeterrenaan now.

The European war ends in 1946 with the Iron curtian being on the rhine and the alps.
This is pretty likely.
But there is no probably, most of the forces that would have been sent to Normandy get sent to Italy, Southern France and maybe the Balkans. The sheer press of men will push the Germans back much quicker than OTL.
So instead of an East-West divide during the cold war, we have a North-South divide instead.

That could run the risk of starting a war with the Soviets, who would probably see it as as the W. Allies siding with the Germans (or at the least pissing the Soviets off by stealing territory that they feel belongs to the USSR).
New thought: What if after the UK and/or US invades the Balkans, the Soviets make a seperate peace with the Germans and turn East, leaving the W. Allies to fend for themselves?
Unlikely.
The Soviets wouldn't be pissed, or at least wouldn't show it. Lend-Lease was still too important to their continuing war efforts. And if they lose the Balkans, they would gain in Northern Europe.
There is absolutely no reason for the Soviets to be upset by the W. Allies attacking Germany from another position. In fact if the W. Allies didn't push hard on another front, then its likely Stalin would make peace with Germany, because they didn't have the man power remaining to defeat the Germans alone.

Personally, I think the Soviets would be stopped eventually. Without the Western Allies tying down German forces in the west, the Germans have more men/equipment to work with, and can trade space for time. The Soviets will most likely sign a seperate peace grudgingly before turning east much sooner than in OTL, resulting in clashes with the UK/US, who might be inclined to support Germany as a buffer zone against the Soviet Union.
I agree with the first part, but not the second.
Until the Nazi party is out of power, preferably by complete and total surrender by Germany, the W. Allies aren't going to support Germany. There was too much bad blood to allow the Germans off easy.
 
Ok, we say that D-day fails for some reason. The allies have lost 6-8 divisions, but I guess a lot of the personell can be evacuated. This means rather little in the overall war effort, even if it a serious delay to the second front in France. The landing in southern France probably still happens on schedule, and another landing happens in northern France as soon as the weather permits.

The forces in southern France and Italy with have more oomph. Perhaps the allies meet the Soviets at the Weser.
 
Personally, I think the Soviets would be stopped eventually. Without the Western Allies tying down German forces in the west, the Germans have more men/equipment to work with, and can trade space for time.

Not really. The Bulk of the Wehrmacht was fighting on the eastern front anyways and troops for garrison duty were still needed in the west, not to mention that the combat quality of many of those divisions was rather questionable (OK for fighting la resistance, but against Russian T-34... not so much) and maybe 10% more troops against the Soviets won't change too much about the final outcome.
 
Not really. The Bulk of the Wehrmacht was fighting on the eastern front anyways and troops for garrison duty were still needed in the west, not to mention that the combat quality of many of those divisions was rather questionable (OK for fighting la resistance, but against Russian T-34... not so much) and maybe 10% more troops against the Soviets won't change too much about the final outcome.
If the W. Allies drop out completely like one or two people said Germany has a small chance. They'd lose everything right to the German border and maybe a little more, but if they can bleed the Soviets harder than they did OTL it may force Stalin to make peace.
The Soviets weren't just scraping the bottom of the barrel by the end they had broken the barrel.
 
If the W. Allies drop out completely like one or two people said Germany has a small chance. They'd lose everything right to the German border and maybe a little more, but if they can bleed the Soviets harder than they did OTL it may force Stalin to make peace.
The Soviets weren't just scraping the bottom of the barrel by the end they had broken the barrel.

If they actually drop out completely, and what this 'completely' actually means. They still have troops in Italy (the advance is a mere crawl still they advance) and those assembled for Operation Dragoon are also around.
Anything short of an armistice with the Western Allies (which even with a failed D-Day is close to ASB) won't free up enough ressources to throw into the eastern meatgrinder.
 
Top