D Day failes

Ok, if Operation Overlord failed, how long would this delay the end of the war. We all know, unlike what Fatherland tells us, that Germany would lose the war even if D Day failed. How much longer would it take? Would the allies attempt another invasion somewhere else, or would the rest of the land war be left to the soviets?
 
How bad of a failure and how? Guns on the beaches stop them? Panzer move in and run them over? What's the troop looses on both sides?

Ike had planed to resign if the invasion failed so what happens next is very much up to whoever replaces him.
 
How bad of a failure and how? Beach defenders stop them? Are all the landing craft destroyed? Panzer move in and crush them? What's the troop losses on both sides?

Ike had planed to resign if the invasion failed so what happens next is very much up to whoever replaces him.
 

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The loss of Ike would be huge, as the man basically held the effort together as the competing personalities struggled against one another. I don't know who would replace him, but they would not be nearly as effect, and the effort could break down to a degree without him. Basically it means the allies are left uncoordinated and could mean the British go for the southern strategy alone if they cannot compromise.

Also, a failure in France means that a southern strategy, probably in the Balkans becomes a major plan, instead of a sideshow. This changes things quite a bit, as the Allies will not necessarily be willing to give up certain places, and could change the alignment of Yugoslavia.

Not to mention what happens to France without being liberated during the war. The longer German control of the country will have massive political effects, but what, who knows? Additionally, what about Stalin's confidence in the Western Allies? I doubt he would seek peace, that is really a bluff meant to force the allies into action, as a surviving Nazi Germany is not in his interests. Rather, I could see him rescind the Tehran treaty, claiming more of Europe as his own as a "penalty" for having to "liberate" Europe by himself. This could mean an earlier confrontation between the Soviets and Allies, with the Balkans as a flashpoint.
 
I read that scenario too; it seems the most likely. At that point Nazi Germany was already doomed, even if the Western Allies had quit the war and left it all to the Soviets, as Stephen Ambrose believes we would have.
Imagine a Soviet-dominated Europe, all the way to the English Channel. They might even have invaded Spain, to settle old scores with Franco. I believe that as the Red Army drew closer, you would have seen the formation of strange alliances, as Germans, local fascist quislings and anti-Nazi resistance fighters joined forces, to fight to keep the Soviets out. But this wouldn't have saved Europe. The Red Army would have swallowed all of Europe, except maybe for Switzerland, which wasn't cost-effective to invade and occupy.
 
Switserland, symbol op kapitalism. In a communist occupied Europe there would be no place for it. Just like Hitler would have invaded the country after all his other goals were accomplished.

mark
 
Hitler did threaten to invade Switzerland on a few occasions; whether he was serious or not, is something we'll probably never know. I do know that he was enraged by the use of German-supplied Bf109s of the Swiss air force to shoot down Luftwaffe aircraft that strayed into Swiss airspace (the impartial Swiss fired on anyone who entered their territory and refused to give themselves up and accept internment, Allies and Axis alike) and wanted to punish the small nation, but decided not to. His generals probably talked him out of it. As I said before, the cost of conquering and holding Switzerland would have been more than it was worth. It's assumed that the Swiss would have fought like tigers, and that even after the Wehrmacht occupied the cities, antipartisan operations in the mountains would have been a nightmare without end.
However, we're not talking about rational minds, given to cost-benefit analysis. Neither Hitler nor Stalin cared much for the lives of their soldiers, and might have been willing to accept enormous casualties, whatever it took, just to eradicate this last independent nation in Europe.
 
Presuming Operation Dragoon succeeds the Axis will still be booted out of France but it will be longer.

The Allies will likely be in Paris by Christmas and as German resistance collapses in the face of the Soviets taking Berlin the advance will speed up.

The Soviets will get more ground and might even reach the Rhine. Change in post war borders will be significant but the Reds wont reach the Atlantic however if the Sovietss managr to capture Peenimunde, the rocket scientists and/or the nuclear technicians the post war world will be very different.
 
Presuming Operation Dragoon succeeds the Axis will still be booted out of France but it will be longer.

The Allies will likely be in Paris by Christmas and as German resistance collapses in the face of the Soviets taking Berlin the advance will speed up.

The Soviets will get more ground and might even reach the Rhine. Change in post war borders will be significant but the Reds wont reach the Atlantic however if the Sovietss managr to capture Peenimunde, the rocket scientists and/or the nuclear technicians the post war world will be very different.
Would Dragoon have gone along as planned with a failed Overlord?
 
Would Dragoon have gone along as planned with a failed Overlord?

I don't see why not, the Allies will be desperate to land on France as quickly as possible and Dragoon was a good plan which would have worked regardless of Overlords success.

Also they could salvage some of what is going to be a massive Axis propaganda victory.
 
I don't see why not, the Allies will be desperate to land on France as quickly as possible and Dragoon was a good plan which would have worked regardless of Overlords success.

Also they could salvage some of what is going to be a massive Axis propaganda victory.
Interesting....I could see Germany and the Netherlands going completely Red, with Belgium and France ending up in the Allied camp.
 
Interesting....I could see Germany and the Netherlands going completely Red, with Belgium and France ending up in the Allied camp.

Well I'm sure there would still be a West German but it would likely be smaller.

Also as the situation in Germany deteriorates the remnants of the German Army are going to more and more concentrate on fighting the Soviets and waiting for the Anglo-Americans to arrive this likely ened up in a Soviet denmark and an East Netherlands.
 
DISASTER AT-DAY

look at the above book, which IMHO is the best available AH novel discussing what a failed d-Day would've been like- including the evry interesting twist with Speidel assassinating Hitler in the aftermath of Rommel's victory & Rommel becoming Chancellor of a denazified Germany...
 
Y'know, I'd image that the Italian campaign would have been given more attention. Maybe after the Gothic Line gets broken through, Patton and/or Montgomery push up through and liberate Austria and move on to Berlin. Maybe there never would have been a divided Germany after the war...
 
Y'know, I'd image that the Italian campaign would have been given more attention. Maybe after the Gothic Line gets broken through, Patton and/or Montgomery push up through and liberate Austria and move on to Berlin. Maybe there never would have been a divided Germany after the war...


That's probably not going to happen without some serious butterflies on the Eastern Front, IOTL the Battle for berlin started in april of '45, the allies didn't finish fighting in Italy until May 8th.
 
a German city would be nuked id think, especially if allied armies were making any progress from the south. I dont remember if i read it in a book or it was one of yall, but the wernt the Nazis the bigger reason for putting so much effort into getting the bomb?
 
a German city would be nuked id think, especially if allied armies were making any progress from the south. I dont remember if i read it in a book or it was one of yall, but the wernt the Nazis the bigger reason for putting so much effort into getting the bomb?
I agree--the atomic weapons would be used on Germany. Most likely, Berlin would be nuked. Of course, all the B-29s might not be deployed to the Pacific but rather be sent to speed the destruction of Germany.
 
I agree--the atomic weapons would be used on Germany. Most likely, Berlin would be nuked. Of course, all the B-29s might not be deployed to the Pacific but rather be sent to speed the destruction of Germany.


Again, Berlin would have been in Russian hands before even the Italian campaign was over. Most of Germany would have been as well if not all of it by the time the Americans got the bomb. There wouldn't be much of a reich left to nuke by the time one was available. Probably you get a smaller version of west Germany.
 
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