Czechoslovakia Stays Tough 1938

Now before you get ideals, this is not about to come out by some fanciful military action on anyone's part. Czechoslovakia was screwed either way in OTL.

Why?

Because the Czech dominated Government went out of its way to treat the minority Slovenes, Germans, Hungarians, Ruthenians, and Poles like shit with a few token crumbs for the Slovenes.

They made up 67% percent of the Czechoslovakian Army and if hostilities started they would have immediately killed the Czech Officers and joined the German, Hungarian, and Polish Armies as they swooped in if they didn't kick off a civil war first.

So, the Solution.

After its Formation, the Czechoslovakian Government makes a true unity government and gives the minorities a comfortable Majority as opposed to the Czechs dominating everything and works at getting them excited to be part of the Government and has a Constitution that ensures no discrimination, etc...

End result, 1938, Hitler sees a stable nation with a unified military that would be better as an ally than a conquest.

Discuss the ramifications.
 
Mmm... fascist Czechoslovakia? maybe the Greater Moravia idea gets passed along, a union of Czechoslovakia, bits of hungary, Slovenia, bits of the Ukraine...

This is if Hitler approves first, and thereby kicking Mr. Horthy straight in the gonades.
 

Rocano

Banned
Czech-German War

Czechs cant win. Germans beat the Czechs and are stopped. German Nazis exist Present day
 
Now before you get ideals, this is not about to come out by some fanciful military action on anyone's part. Czechoslovakia was screwed either way in OTL.

Why?

Because the Czech dominated Government went out of its way to treat the minority Slovenes, Germans, Hungarians, Ruthenians, and Poles like shit with a few token crumbs for the Slovenes.

They made up 67% percent of the Czechoslovakian Army and if hostilities started they would have immediately killed the Czech Officers and joined the German, Hungarian, and Polish Armies as they swooped in if they didn't kick off a civil war first.

So, the Solution.

After its Formation, the Czechoslovakian Government makes a true unity government and gives the minorities a comfortable Majority as opposed to the Czechs dominating everything and works at getting them excited to be part of the Government and has a Constitution that ensures no discrimination, etc...

End result, 1938, Hitler sees a stable nation with a unified military that would be better as an ally than a conquest.

Discuss the ramifications.

Uh, what? Is this some kind od Double Blind?
 
Uh, what? Is this some kind od Double Blind?
Nah, he's exegerating. Things could have been much better, but the 'if hostilities started they would have immediately killed the Czech Officers and joined the German, Hungarian, and Polish Armies as they swooped in if they didn't kick off a civil war first' is a bit... well, exegerated.
 
Nah, he's exegerating. Things could have been much better, but the 'if hostilities started they would have immediately killed the Czech Officers and joined the German, Hungarian, and Polish Armies as they swooped in if they didn't kick off a civil war first' is a bit... well, exegerated.

That is no exaggeration, everyone involved in the Munich Talks knew it was going to happen, thats why Chamberlain gave in so easily.

Czechs had no one but themselves to blame.

The reason Hitler wanted to come to war was that he thought Stalin would jump in, which would had forced the Poles to call for his help and then he could have manipulated it to where he came on top. Neither the French or British were prepared to fight and were just beginning to rearm.

Mussolini trashed that plan through his diplomatic efforts. The first time he cost Hitler a carefully laid plan. "Shrugs"
 
Originally posted by LordInsane
Nah, he's exegerating. Things could have been much better, but the 'if hostilities started they would have immediately killed the Czech Officers and joined the German, Hungarian, and Polish Armies as they swooped in if they didn't kick off a civil war first' is a bit... well, exegerated.

I agree, the prospects of a possible slovak uprising after the hostilities begin was more or less clear and it was plaussible that some kind of rebellion had happened in Slovakia, also the sudeten germans organized around Heinlein nazis party had formed militias that had occupied even a sudetenland city in OTL before the Munich agreement.

So Sudeten germans more or less total support to a nazi invasion and a slovak uprising or at least riots are things totally plaussible and highly probable but saying that there was not practically war because the most part of the army had deserted after killing his czech officials is exagerated, any historian that I have read has not contemplated that possibility and I think not because they don´t know those facts only because it had not happened, the fact is the czechs had a very good army and an interesting system of fortifications, the nazis had could win a war against the czechs but fighting hard , although the probabilities of some kind of blitzkrieg exists, if the german army gets overrun early the fortification systems and defeat the resistence in the czech mountainous terrain (and after the Anschluss with Austria the germans not only had inherited another flank to bring the war to the czechs, also the well manned mountain austrian divisions) they could cut Czechoslovakia in two -as we observe in a map Czechoslovakia is geographically with little width, very long country but like Israel if you get the momentum you could cut the country in two- if this happens the probabilities of a slovak rebellion would be high and if this happens, Czechoslovakia cut in two and with Slovakia in rebellion the czech army could collapse quickly.
 
That, and Czechoslovakia's fortresses were almost entirely on the German border... so the Austrian border was unfortified, and with the Anschluss...
 
:rolleyes::D

czechcliche.gif
 
Originally posted by ThomasG
That is no exaggeration, everyone involved in the Munich Talks knew it was going to happen, thats why Chamberlain gave in so easily.

Czechs had no one but themselves to blame.

The reason Hitler wanted to come to war was that he thought Stalin would jump in, which would had forced the Poles to call for his help and then he could have manipulated it to where he came on top. Neither the French or British were prepared to fight and were just beginning to rearm.

Mussolini trashed that plan through his diplomatic efforts. The first time he cost Hitler a carefully laid plan. "Shrugs"

Ehem... the main reason of why Chamberlain gave in so easily was not those "facts" about the czechs, simplily as showed by any historian Chamberlain feared a lot the force of Luftwaffe (as we know the germans had had a great success in made believe the western potences that the Luftwaffe was far large that in the reality was, a prove of this politic was the visit of Lindberg to Germany in 1938 prior to the Czech crisis, in part a visit to know how much big the Luftwaffe was, the germans intentionaly made a great trip of aircraf factories prepared specially to get the right effect: and effectively Lindbergh reported that it was clear that the capacity of building aircraft and the military potence of the Luftwaffe was enormous, he advised strongly to western potences to not go to war with Germany or the Luftwaffe will destroy London or Paris quickly), in fact this is clear because the initial fears and prospects of a war in 1938 was a sudden attack of the Luftwaffe against England, confronted with this and with the fact that it seems that in England and France had not too much gains to suffer another world war (remember all that young generation sacrified in the Somme or in Verdun..etc, the french and british like the US after the Vietnam War had a "World War I" psichosys with fear as how the public opinion will react to another World War II) it is clear why Chamberlain and a more reluctant Daladier decided to make the Munich Agreement.

Respect to involve Stalin in a fight, I am not sure what are your sources but it was clear as the Spanish civil war had showed (when Stalin give direct orders that not made confrontantions with germans to defend the soviets merchants in route to Republican Spain) that Stalin not wanted a war against Germany unless that the western potences also intervened, and this was a thing a lot of clear in those moments, plus massive purges in the military in the Soviet Union had showed that the Soviet Union was in not a way in intervening in a war against Germany without the help of Britain and France.

Psichologically Hitler wanted a war to show himself, to Germany and the world the mighty of the new Whermacht, he expected that the czechs refused the ultimatum, he expected a hard fight but could be quick fight agains the czechs (with probably an uprising in Slovakia and surely in Sudetenland), he expected as he knew clearly as showed in Rhineland in 1936 and the little direct reactions against the Anschluss of 1938 that the western potences had little will to go to a war and even if this happened the french would need time to mobilize and surely the british seemed that not go to send an army to Europe, he expected that when Czechoslovakia had fallen in a relatively quick although hard campaign the western potences had gone to a table of negotiations to merely recognised the fait accompli (in 1939 the western potences showed how little will had to go in help of an ally when the french only made an almost token offensive in the Sarre to help the poles, in fact the poles were sacrificed while the french after a cautious movement in Sarre begin with the british the named phase of the Phony war or the Drole du la Guerre, so if they made this in september 1939 imagine how little help had they given to the czechs in 1938).

And respect to Czechoslovakia certainly it could not be a paradise for some minorities but it is also true and this fact is clear that Czechoslovakia was at those moments the only more or less real democratic regime in Eastern Europe, so one thing is say that effectively the czechs had could be defeated in a war against Germany and the western potences had little will to go to help Czechoslovakia, another thing is saying that the only guilt of all this situation was in the side of the czechs, surely they had could have the things better, but having account of the political situation in Europe in general and in concrete in Eastern Europe Czechoslovakia was the best country to live in those moments in Eastern Europe.

So if exists a guilt in all these chain of events is 1)Hitler and 2)the Western Potences, in fact to say simplily France and Britain abandoned the czechs and practically made the same with the poles in the military terrain in 1939.
 
Czechoslovakia cannot win. However, this would be the best one of the possible WWIIs, as it means that, in all likely hood, the Nazis are on the ropes by 1941. If nothing else, the Czech army (and no, the officers would not all be assasinated) could bloody the Wehrmacht enough to make the conquest not worht the effort.
 
In 1939 almost two-thirds of all German tanks and one-third of other divisions consisted of surrendered Czech equipment and production from Czech arms factories. Erase all or even half of that and Germany is much weaker against Poland, let alone France.

If Germany is left completely defenseless in the West in 1939 then Hitler still attacks Poland with less than 50% of his panzers and barely 80% of the his infantry.
 
That is no exaggeration, everyone involved in the Munich Talks knew it was going to happen, thats why Chamberlain gave in so easily.

Czechs had no one but themselves to blame.

The reason Hitler wanted to come to war was that he thought Stalin would jump in, which would had forced the Poles to call for his help and then he could have manipulated it to where he came on top. Neither the French or British were prepared to fight and were just beginning to rearm.

Mussolini trashed that plan through his diplomatic efforts. The first time he cost Hitler a carefully laid plan. "Shrugs"

1) You are confusing Slovaks and Slovenes. Yes it is cheap of me, but really shows your expertise.

2) The census from 1921 puts Slovaks at 14,5 percent of population (Cuhra, 2006: 16). And sudenly according to you they make two thirs of the army?

3) Several Slovak and German parties were part of Czechoslovak goverments for most of the time. The last pre-crisis prime minister of Czechoslovakia was a Slovak.

4) As I presented above there were 14,5 percent of Slovaks in Czechoslovakia, tell me then if they all hated Czechs so much how: A) HĽDS had about 7 percent share of the vote? B) Slovak National Uprising, where the goal was a reunification with Czechs in a common state.

5) Why did nothing happen during the mobilization as did with unlozal Germans?
How did the Czechs treat the Slovaks? Might a better miniority policy affect German sentiment in the Sudeten?
Official nationality of Czechoslovakia was Czechoslovak nation, of which Czech and Slovak were two branches of. And mostly Czechs treated (this is not the past participle of treat, is it?) in a patronizing manner - "our rural uneducated brothers, who need our guidiance".

the sudeten germans organized around Heinlein nazis party had formed militias that had occupied even a sudetenland city in OTL before the Munich agreement.

And they got theur posterior kicked by militias organized about German Communist and Social Democrats.
 
Looking at the map it struck me that the key issue in may ways was Rumania. Had Rumania stayed true to the little entente it would have been possible to send support to Czechosolvakia.

Plus of course without Rumanian oil Nazi Germany would be in some difficulties if the West's response was just sanctions
 
I doubt the Slovakians would have went over to the Germans.
Yes the Czechs had most of the power but the Czechs are at least semi-Slovakians.
Germans are totally different and have a long history of picking on Czechslovakia; it wouldn't take a idiot to figure out the nazis probally aren't going to be much better then past rulers.

Also- those who join the army usually aren't the kind who hate the nation. Sure needing a job can force them into it but there is usually some kind of liking the nation involved (unless they were conscripted of course, I don't know)
 
Originally posted by Gladi
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iñaki
the sudeten germans organized around Heinlein nazis party had formed militias that had occupied even a sudetenland city in OTL before the Munich agreement.

And they got theur posterior kicked by militias organized about German Communist and Social Democrats.

I did not knew this fact, it is interesting, also would show that Czechoslovakia was a large refugee for politic exilees from Germany and also that not all the population of Sudetenland was so enthusiastic respect to Hitler, How would be the reaction of these if Hitler invades Czechoslovakia?

I search the book in my home that I remember put this information, they were the czech frontier cities of Asch and Eger the occupied by the named "Sudetenland Freikorps" (if you want to search these cities in a map I make some adittional research because the book use the names that in 1938 was put to these cities, Asch continue more or less having the same name but in czech is named As and Eger is nowadays named Cheb).

Also a brief mistake from my side: is Henlein not Heinlein (Auuch! these things happens when you are also a follower of sci-fi, Robert Heinlein you know)
 
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