Czechoslovakia-Polish Alliance

France had already all but wholly given up on that system of alliances in 1938, and anyway, it would never fight without Britain in the 1930s, and Britain was never going to give unconditional support to Czechoslovakia or Poland.

However, given that Poland was way overconfident of its military prowess in 1939, if the Teschen issue is somehow dealt with (say in dire straits Pargue accepts to cede Teschen in exchange for military support), an anti-German Czecho-Polish alliance is plausible, if Warsaw does not expect Stalin to intervene. And given how much the M-R Pact took Europe by surprise. the latter is plausible. Of course, actually a German-Soviet anti-Polish de facto alliance is quite likely.

See I do not buy that any nation would never do anything particular thing. Also unconditional support is different then support. In such a conflcit they could cut off trade to Germany, supply weapons to the Poles, even do actual combat in exchange for conditions.

Next the Teschen issue was a rather minor one outside of when the Czech's had utterly no way to say otherwise. Few politicans seem to have made any real public out cry to take that land "back." Sure a few said it should be theirs, but it was not wide in terms of public support.
 

Eurofed

Banned
Now the obvious issue is the strength of these armies compared to the near mythic forces of Germany. However the arguement is that the blitzkrieg tactic is not effective against an entrenched established line, and a two front war limits the mobility, and flexibility of the German army.

The Czechs had very little fortifications on the Austrian side of the border, mind it.

Some have spoken of Russian appearing and making the Non-Aggression Pact, yet such a thing is outside of how Stalin acted,

After the snub Russia got with exclusion from the Munich Conference, Stalin may already have ample justification for going the M-R way.

one must consider how Stalin would lean towards international opinion in the 1930's.

Not a relevant issue. The late 1930s Comintern parrots whatever policy Stalin tells it to do. See how European communists fell into line after the M-R Pact was signed.

What makes this very interesting is that France and the UK could sit this out, but with Germany not only at war but stalling in a war public opinion is not instantly against such a conflict.

Untrue. "A war in a distant country, we know nothing about...".

Another thing to take note of is Mussolini in this matter, after all it was he who encouraged the Munich meeting to avoid conflict. With a conflict in place, and Germany presented as the villian we may see the wonderful ability of Italy to change its mind, while perhaps taking a slice of Italy.

If the war happens out of Czecho-Polish willful defiance of Munich, with Britain and France sitting this out, Benny is most certainly not going to blame Hitler. And international public opinion is most likely not taking a definite side in the issue, to the point of casting Germany as the villain. Defiance of Munich would cost Prague sympathy. Some (especially left-wingers) would be sympathetic to the CZS-POL alliance, some (especially right-wingers) would be sympathetic to Germany. If (when) Russia intervenes against Poland, sympathies would be even murkier, some right-wingers would be alienated by ther German-Soviet alliance, while pro-Soviet left-wingers would get sympathetic.
 

Eurofed

Banned
See I do not buy that any nation would never do anything particular thing.

If you prefer, so politically unplausible as to be near-ASB. While it is clear that 1938-39 France would fight Germany alone in some conditions (e.g. to keep Alsace-Lorraine), all available evidence indicates that giving unconditional military support to Eastern Europe minors was not such a case.

In such a conflcit they could cut off trade to Germany, supply weapons to the Poles,

This they could do (for Britain, it is more likely they stick to true neutrality). My radical objection was to solo French belligerance.

even do actual combat in exchange for conditions.

Not going to happen. Especially not after Prague and Warsaw start the war by defying Munich.
 
While it is clear that 1938-39 France would fight Germany alone in some conditions (e.g. to keep Alsace-Lorraine), all available evidence indicates that giving unconditional military support to Eastern Europe minors was not such a case.

Spot on, at one point the French even suggested to the Soviets that they would support their claim to Eastern Poland if they entered into a tripartite alliance with Britain.
 
Based on the German ammo supply situation at the end of the Polish campaign (two weeks worth of bombs left and less than four weeks of ammo left), the idea of them taking on the Czechs and the Poles together almost a year earlier without access to Czech ammo stocks seems close to ASB.

There was a reason why the German military thought seriously about deposing Hitler when he plotted to attack the Czechs: the Germans were nowhere close to ready for war in fall 1938:

+ Ammunition stocks too low
+ Pilots lacked training (they did okay in Poland after another year)
+ Synthetics plants not ready, which meant dependence on imported rubber and oil. Even if the Brits, etc don't cut that off, how long would the German hard currency supply last?
+ Army training incomplete. That was true to a lesser extent by Sept 1939, but would have been a major issue in Oct 1938.
+ They were desperately short of hard currency, and absolutely had to have it to pay for the imports they needed to keep their industries running.

The Germans were almost always on a shoestring. They had to take Austria or they would have had to reduce military spending by 30%. Their governance of Austria was more a looting than anything else, and they used Austrian resources to keep up the buildup. By fall 1938 they absolutely had to take something again or cut the buildup. Sudetenland was rich in resources, especially a type of coal ideal for synthetic fuel and rubber processes. And by March 1939 the Germans were back to needing another fix. Each conquest made the next feasible. In the early going, the Germans couldn't afford to actually fight for their conquests, though by Sept 1939 they sort of were.

My guess: If the Germans didn't win quickly against the Czechs they wouldn't be capable of offensive action simply due to lack of ammo. They would probably not just lose, but lose in humiliating fashion.
 

The Sandman

Banned
Now there's an interesting follow-on question: what are the results of the Germans losing against the Czechs and Poles? Aside from the fall of the Nazi government, which would seem to be an inevitable consequence of combining economic collapse with military humiliation at the hands of minor nations.
 
A lot depends on the French. IOTL the Poles proclaimed that they would help Czechoslovakia if France also did, and the Czechs also refused to do anything without French support. If the French decide to support Czechoslovakia, then Germany cannot win. But if France does not? Let's assume that the Czechs are willing to fight even then. If Poland declares unconditional support for the Czechs, would it change France's attitude? I doubt. With France out of the picture, would Poland want to commit itself? Considerable forces would have to be ready to move to the Soviet border in order to be able to safely deploy the rest of Poland's military in the west. Acting togeather without France in 1938 would to require a clear awareness of Germany's weakness, both in Prague and Warsaw.

Of course, that is not to say that they could not win. The Wehrmacht of 1939 was vastly more powerful than in 1938, and even then it used up much of its ammunition stocks on a single enemy. In this scenario it faces two. And of course anytime France launches a meaningful attack, the Reich is doomed. As Dale said, it would have to score a rapid victory. If Hitler continues to insist on war despite the presence of such an alliance, a coup is quite likely even before war breaks out.
 

perfectgeneral

Donor
Monthly Donor
Post German Defeat

A successful Polish-Czech alliance might make a more permanent military pact. Czech tanks and Polish aircraft would make a powerful force (especially with economies of scale increasing the rate of development).

Would Romania be invited and be interested in joining such a pact?
 
They already had individual agreements with both, so i don't see why not. I believe Yugoslavia would also be interested as well, already having ties to the Czechs thru the Little Entente.

Call it the Slavic Entente, maybe?
 
The Munich Agreement included a rather explicit statement that if CZS decided to defy it, they would face Germany alone, with no help whatsoever by the Entente. What you quote happened before an agreement between Britain and Germany was reached. No way that Britain and France would decide to fight for a defiant regional power that spurns their advice because they found backing by another regional power.

That being why they mobilised to do so?

CZS and Poland were not so vital an interest or official allies of the Entente that they would feel compelled to fight on their behalf even if they start the war.

And what happened in 1939, then?
 
The Germans wouldn't lose to the Czechs and the Poles. Geography ensures it isn't a genuine two front war.

The German strategy is clear. You largely ignore the Czechs, stationing some reserve forces in case they depart their defensive positions and advance in strength. Silesia would seem the only real area of concern, as while if they advance into say Vienna or Munich its going to look bad in real strategic terms it wouldn't matter that much. Ultimately if the Czechs make such an advance they must abandon the defensive advantage generally accorded to them.

Most likely however they won't advance. They shall be happy to stay on defensive while looking nervously for various fifth columnists amongst the Slovakians, ethnic Germans, the potential backdoor threat from Hungary and so on and so forth.

While this is going on front line formations and the majority of equipment is sent against Poland. Would 1938 Germany defeat 1938 Poland? Anything is possible ofcourse, but I think you are being hopelessly idealistic to say no. It won't be as one-sided perhaps as OTL, but its hard to see Poland not being defeated in detail. Especially if Germany offers some early equivelent of the Ribbentrop-Molotov pact, which the Soviets may be well be inclined to accept. As it was in OTL the Soviet invasion wouldn't have been necessary as the Poles had been decisively beaten before September 17th. Once Poland has been neutralised Germany can turn her full weight upon the Czechs and defeat them at leisure.

Would Britain and France sit it out? Depends on who declares war on who. If the Czechs and the Poles have rather inexplicably declared war on Germany then the British atleast will have real political pressure to sit the thing out and try and negotiate peace. France is probably more militant, but if the British stay out while calling for peace the French will probably stay out as well.
 
Prrrum-da-da-dun-dun-TA-TUN! I am returned!

(Exam season being over, IBC is now back to advance the Slavo-Bolshevik Conspiracy for World Domination. Za Stalina!)

Of course, the Soviets complicate things further for the Poles, at least...

I'm not saying the Poles weren't right to feel suspicious of the USSR, and that will of course affect their decision-making, but in real terms the USSR would assist Poland if it assisted CZS. The Soviets attemped to use their non-aggression pact to blackmail the Poles out of claiming Zaolzie - in other words, they made an implied threat that Poland might suffer Soviet wrath if it didn't support the Czechs.

If we're assuming a butterfly-net that keeps everything the same up to 1938 except for the existence of this Slavic Entente - something I personally regard as unlikely - then the Soviets can be counted on to display a friendly attitude to this partnership.
 
A successful Polish-Czech alliance might make a more permanent military pact. Czech tanks and Polish aircraft would make a powerful force (especially with economies of scale increasing the rate of development).

Would Romania be invited and be interested in joining such a pact?

Don't start with Polish aircraft. Thank to Piłsudski's disbelief in modern warfare (air and armoured) Polish Air Force was really unimpressive.

However, if you mean Polish pilots, that's a diffrent story.
 
Interwar Polish foreign policy was already quite foolish, so it would be in character.

I know, right? The Poles needed to give a firm leg up to the Czechs and lose some suspicion of the USSR, and shouldn't have adopted such a supine attitude to Germany for so long. :p

A quite interesting scenario would be if Poland offers to back Czech defiance of Munich Agreement. Britain and France would wash their hands clean.

But is Munich ever signed?

The Czechs had several times conceded to the "full demands" of the Nazis and their myrmidon Henlein, only to be presented with a new set. That was explicit Nazi policy.

If the Czechs had a reliable Polish alliance - an adequate buffer for the USSR, big enough to fight and, where the Entente are concerned, too big to fail - then they may well decide "Yeah, whatever happened to 'no territorial demands'? Piss off, Hitler." If the Czechs stick it to Germany before Munich, Britain and France would be hard-pressed to keep clear. Before Munich, numerous people who by all means wanted to avoid a war between Germany and the Entente - including Goering, the German generals, Mussolini, and much of the British political and press elite - considered it a very serious possibility, in some cases almost unavoidable.

Chamberlain had always talked of the "dual policy" of appeasement and re-armament. British shows of force were intended to get Germany to negotiate. So what if they refused? No sensible government would, but the Nazis were not a sensible government.

Allowing the Germans to wave their willies at the whole purpose appeasement policy is a differant thing from clarifying that you won't become involved in the Heroic Last Stand of a country you already sold out.

Note that there was little hesitation in making war for a junta widely regarded as a German client now reeping what it had sowed and with a drastically inferior military position, when the possibility of negotiation did not exist.

Although Germany would eventually win that war, it would likely take several months for Germany to win a more exhausting victory than OTL Poland campaign.

The Czechs were estimated to last 3-4 weeks. Storming their mountains is going to leave the Germans severely exhasuted - and even the comprehensive rout of the Poles in 1939 badly depleted German stocks of bombs and bullets.

The Poles might make their own attacks, for example in Upper Silesia or southern East Prussia. This would be foolish, but the Polish officer class didn't think so. It would worsen their own eventualy defensive position, but could only buy a bit more time for the Czechs.

Still, once the Czechs are crushed, the Germans are badly battered, against an intact Polish army. They will win, but it will be a long, hard slog.

Quite likely, at some point Stalin would propose Berlin a M-R agreement, in exchange for Soviet help to crush the Czech-Poles, at better terms for the USSR than OTL. E.g. the German-Soviet demarcation line would stay on the Vistula instead of being moved to the Bug, but with Lithuania in the Soviet sphere of influence from the start instead of being traded for more Polish land, and/or Carpathian Ruthenia going to the Soviets.

So in 1938, with Litvinov still at the the helm, Stalin would come hard over to Molotov's policy where he had been deeply committed to Czech independance?

Only plausible - I say plausible, not likely - if the Entente snub of Munich has already happened.

Now, the Poles suddenly being overcome with suicidal pan-Slavism just after the signature of Munich is, theoretically speaking, no less plausible than their being overcome with reasoned pan-Slavism just before. This whole scenario is founded on a sudden, unlikely shift in Polish attitudes.

But you, of course, are only analysing those variations most beneficial to the Germans.

Hungary would likely step in and move to annex Slovakia, or would get it from Germany in exchange for an alliance.

Yugoslavia and Romania had adopted a fairly explicit attitude of "make my day, punk" towards Horthy, and Horthy was a sensible man. That was one of the things that made Germany shuffle back after Bad Godesberg, actually.

If Hungary for some reason does adopt a policy of national suicide, Romania will not only attack, but also likely adopt a more unqualified pro-Soviet attitude.

Germany would then settle down for a while in order to rebuild its strength, with an aim to Barbarossa and eventual betrayal of its new "ally". Britain and France would remain spectaros.

And, as usual, more powerful forces aligning against Germany sooner must result in Germany doing better. Obviously.

Stalin would then go for annexation of the Baltics and the Winter War, and reap as meager a performance as OTL, although with Britain and France remaining neutrals, quite possibly he would press for total conquest of Finland in the end.

He waited until exactly the moment at which inter-capitalist conflict reached a high-point (June 1940) to annex the Baltics. Now, it would only bring capitalists together. Why do it?

Answer: to construct the desperately needed military buffer. This is my biggest problem with your scenario: Stalin suddenly adopting such a stupid policy, destroying the buffer between him and Hitler without formenting conflict between Hitler and the Entente - quite the reverse.

Italy would almost surely exploit the confusion to annex Albania, and attack Yugoslavia with the help of Hungary and Bulgaria, it would win in the end (greatly helped by the defection of Slovenes and Croats).

And Slovenes? Whuh?

The Slovene attitude was generally something like '(Tito is better than) Hapsburgs are better than Serbs are better than Italians are better than Nazis (are better than Tito)', delete as innapropriate.

This would yield a rather interesting diplomatic landscape by late 1939, with all the great powers still at peace, Germany, Russia, and Italy busy rebuilding their strength, and Britain and France wary of all of them. Let's also say that the Soviet-Japanese border war occurs while Russia is still busy with Finland, so it ends in a stalemate, with Japan still persuaded it perhaps can take on Russia.

Khalkyn-Gol took place before the Finnish debacle and involved entirely those Soviet forces that were on location.

The Soviet army in the Far East was better than the Japanese army in the Far East. That is a part of the geostrategic landscape, and the activities of the Soviet army in Europe have no bearing on it. An all-out shooting war with tanks rolling across Manchuria, that would affect Europe, which is precisely why Stalin didn't wage it.
 
It goes this way: Czechslovakia defies the Munich Agreement, thanks to offer of Soviet military support. Germany declares war to Czechoslovakia, Britain and France wash their hands clean of the issue.

Again, we must assume that the Munich agreement is signed to get this to work.

In reality, this scenario doesn't really require anything so implausible as a Polish u-turn. All it requires is for Hitler to have a nutbar moment, which is hardly implausible, and not move back from his defiant posture at Bad Godesberg. This is quite likely to result in his being assasinated, of course, but it's a quick and fairly plausible way to bring about Czech-German war than either Warsaw or Moscow attaching itself to an obviously lost cause.

Russia asks free passage to Poland, since it does not have a border with Czechoslovakia, Warsaw freaks out and refuses, the Red Army invades Poland.

I've spoken up for the possibility of Polish-Soviet war in this scenario, but it's hardly inevitable. As GPPII points out, you're completely neglecting the Romanian angle.

Germany and Poland make an uneasy quick alliance and Poland reluctantly hands back Danzig in exchange for promises of territorial compensations from Soviet territory. Hungary sides with Germany and Poland after it is promised Slovakia. Romania is torn between its anti-Soviet alliance to Poland and its distrust of Hungary, but eventually reluctantly sides with Poland or remains neutral, coin's toss.

I love this.

Firstly, we replace Horthy with a rabidly aggressive leader determine dto lead Hungary into the abbyss and launch the all-out attack that Horthy would not have launched.

Then, we have Romania - Romania - ally with rabidly aggressive Hungary.

Right.
 
Did Romania promised so ? I maintain some healthy skepticism they would actually go along with letting Soviet troops cross their territory, short of German attack to their territory, and hence direly emperil their ownership of Bessarabia that way.

Imperilling their ownership of Transylvania doesn't seem to bother your Romanians, however.

However, if it were true, it would endanger my scenario, indeed. But we can always easily assume that anti-Communist right-wing elements take over in Romania and deny the Soviets free passage at the last minute.

We could also assume that Britain and France get off their bums and do something, but for some reason we don't.

Romania was pro-Entente in 1939, and distrustful of Hungary, but they had no love for Soviet Russia either, and if Britain and France wash their hands of the defiant, pro-Soviet Czechs, I wholly expect that Romania would change their minds about letting the Soviets through.

I'd agree - if not for the Hungarian attack on Slovakia to focus their minds.

In the event of a Soviet-backed Polish-Czech alliance, Romania would be a reliable cheerleader, watching their back against Hungary - this unlikely combination resolves their essential strategic dilemma.

I assume that if it was actually given, assent to Soviet troops passage was promised when the expectation was of an Entente-Soviet anti-German alliance, not of a German-Soviet war with the Entente a true neutral if not borderline anti-Soviet, a wholly different diplomatic, strategic, political scenario. So on second thoughts, I stick to my scenario that Soviet Russia, if it chooses to help CZS defy Munich, would be forced to pull a Belgium 1914 and fight their way through Poland and/or Romania.

Yes, but as I said, I regard this scenario as much less plausible than a foolhardy German attack before Munich.
 
The Munich Agreement included a rather explicit statement that if CZS decided to defy it, they would face Germany alone, with no help whatsoever by the Entente. What you quote happened before an agreement between Britain and Germany was reached. No way that Britain and France would decide to fight for a defiant regional power that spurns their advice because they found backing by another regional power. CZS and Poland were not so vital an interest or official allies of the Entente that they would feel compelled to fight on their behalf even if they start the war.

But as I said, why should the Czechs have to adopt such a supine attitude to German trickery, if they have a reliable ally at their backs that can force a temporary stalemate?

Of course, actually a German-Soviet anti-Polish de facto alliance is quite likely.

What with how Stalin tried to encourage a Polish-Czech alliance and everything.
 

Biggy

Banned
Poland reluctantly hands back Danzig in exchange for promises of territorial compensations from Soviet territory
The city didn't belong to Poland, it couldn't "hand it back". Also Poland wasn't interested in further territories East, Hitler promised them several times to Polish leaders before WW2 and they rejected his offers.

In fairness the Czechs didn't seek Poles as allies for a long time because besides bad blood over Cieszyn and Zaolzie region, they also didn't see Poland as country that would continue to exist, and were sure of Soviet support as their safeguard against the Germans.
A POD with less influence of Pilsudski in Polish politics and more of parties that were seeing Germany as primary Polish threat would be required to seek Polish-Czech alliance. Cieszyn despite symbolism wasn't that difficult to solve in peacefull way if both sides would be willing to do so.
 
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