Cyberpunk without the influence of Blade Runner

Bruce Bethke and William Gibson are still alive and kicking and writing the earliest clear-cut cyberpunk works during the early 1980s.

But, in this particular ATL... Blade Runner was never made (or never finished).

How will this change the esthetic choices associated with cyberpunk, whether it be the ones of the early Gibsonian writings, the later literary renditions or the film examples ?
 
Neoliberalism and deindustrialisation (specifically the aspects relating to the decaying of cities) was going to inspire a film movement of that aesthetic style regardless, even if it doesn't lead to similar implimentation. You already had films like Escape from New York and The Road Warrior and, of course, Nineteen Eighty-Four was going to be inevitable. You'll note that these films are similar on the same vein in regards to dystopic cities and industry but don't quite tackle it in the same way as Blade Runner does. I wonder, without Blade Runner, we might not see films like Akira.
 
Not much. Writers might still be living in the bad side of town, and need only look out the window...

If Blade Runner isn't cited as the defining movie of cyberpunk, there's still Cherry 2000, Terminator, Robocop, Street Knight, the Kameleon series, and possibly even Predator 2.
 
Blader Runner for someone was more Survivalist Action Adventure that Cyberpunk, heck even Robocop was more hard cyberpunk.

maybe will take more time to going into mainstrea relevance but that is not vital to that, is like Star Wars not being made, still exist the seed of Sci-fi but wiil take more time to be flourish
 
Not much. Writers might still be living in the bad side of town, and need only look out the window...

If Blade Runner isn't cited as the defining movie of cyberpunk, there's still Cherry 2000, Terminator, Robocop, Street Knight, the Kameleon series, and possibly even Predator 2.

A Robocop-flavored cyberpunk movement? That'd be interesting in a post-cyberpunkish way, considering Robocop is a victim of the system while still willingly working within it.
 
Not as much as you think. I think

Bruce Bethke and William Gibson are still alive and kicking and writing the earliest clear-cut cyberpunk works during the early 1980s.

But, in this particular ATL... Blade Runner was never made (or never finished).

How will this change the esthetic choices associated with cyberpunk, whether it be the ones of the early Gibsonian writings, the later literary renditions or the film examples ?

I think Blade Runner didn't create the cyberpunk tropes and looks, more sort of codified them and put them together in one handy grab-bag. If it was butterflied away, would we still have, say, The Hunger? Or the 1984 Apple Mac advert? Or Brazil? I think mostly we would, although not perhaps the Apple Mac ad (because it was a direct ripoff!)

Let's go thru the checklist

* 30's era architecture, retrofitted with tech? Road Warrior, arguably even Star Wars, let's not forget Metropolis
* backlit fans? Apocalype Now
* windswept rooms, beams of light thru dust? The Hunger
* hardbitten protagonist with a biological booby trap? Escape From New York
* synth soundtrack? Chariots of Fire, Midnight Express, Cat People, everything John Carpenter pre-Christine

So removing Blade Runner would butterfly away some things but most would stay intact, but the literary movement would proceed normally. We'd miss a damn fine film, but that's basically it. And hopefully Johnny Mnemonic never gets filmed, and the Stallone Judge Dredd gets a better designer

Now try it without EFNY...:):):)
 
I never said BR is cyberpunk. It's more like tech-noir, to be honest. And it can't be directly cyberpunk, since it predates the style.

You've shown some nice assesments so far, guys. :) Keep it up.

Would cyberpunk still have as much of a semi-Asian esthetic without BR ? I'm not sure how much influence had on Gibson's plans to include visuals and traits extrapolated from the stereotypical "Asian Tiger boom" photos of his time.
 
Blader Runner for someone was more Survivalist Action Adventure that Cyberpunk, heck even Robocop was more hard cyberpunk.

maybe will take more time to going into mainstrea relevance but that is not vital to that, is like Star Wars not being made, still exist the seed of Sci-fi but wiil take more time to be flourish
Blade Runner was not a cyberpunk movie, correct. But no artistic work more influenced cyberpunk than Blade Runner. The aesthetics, the lingo, the sensibilities of cyberpunk were all pioneered in Blade Runner. It's the conduit through which the classic noir and hard-boiled sensibilities of classic crime and detective movies got imported into cyberpunk fiction as a neo-noir genre.
 
Blade Runner was not a cyberpunk movie, correct. But no artistic work more influenced cyberpunk than Blade Runner. The aesthetics, the lingo, the sensibilities of cyberpunk were all pioneered in Blade Runner. It's the conduit through which the classic noir and hard-boiled sensibilities of classic crime and detective movies got imported into cyberpunk fiction as a neo-noir genre.

Well, yes indeed. :) I have little to add in terms of noir influences on early cyberpunk.
 
I've been mulling this one. IMO it's putting the cart before the horse- Gibson was doing cyberpunk stories before Blade Runner even went into production.

No question Ridley Scott and the production designers did a phenomenal job
expanding on PKD's paranoia and sense of loss at how modern society warped things in the story, Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep? in creating that no-noir look of decayed raygun Gothic that worked so well in the movie but I'll happily argue that they were riding the wave not creating it.

What BR did was actually showcase what'd been bubbling along in SF short stories since Dangerous Visions was published in 1967, showcasing the New Wave authors interested in social change rather than raygun space opera.

FWIW JG Ballard did a ton of depressing urban setting SF in the 1970's that you could call proto-cyberpunk, except it was about urban decay and social anomie than the New Flesh.
Obviously, PKD brought the paranoia and dislocation of rapid social/technological change and fractal nature of identity that cyberpunk really amplified later.

Cyberpunk (William Gibson and Bruce Sterling tend to be my go-to's but John Varley and other authors) tackled the social trends of government being less involved and corporations running amok in the 80's.

LSS a better question is, w/o Philip K Dick pointing the way, would William Gibson have done his Sprawl series and thus founded cyberpunk?
 
Oh, I actually agree with the notion that Gibson and others, inspired by their contemporary world and previous 1960s/1970s dystopian sci-fi, would still write what would recognizably be cyberpunk.

I myself am an admirer of a lot of the Anglo/American and European New Wave authors. I think it was an important, innovative and influential era of sci-fi. Despite some of its works or ideas becoming dated, it positively influenced the future developments of science fiction for decades to come. :)

However, when I started this thread, I was wondering more about the esthetic influences on Gibson's works. Yes, he had confirmed that they'd be set in noirish and boom-towny urbane landscapes extrapolated from 80s trends. But I was wondering whether the vision of a rainy, slummy metropolis of the future would become as ingrained in the public imagination when talking about the cyberpunk style. Blade Runner being tech-noir, I think timeline without the film's noir influences would have a somewhat less stylized take on cyberpunk. Visually, it would still be a "cozy, contrasting, multicultural, overpopulated dystopia", but it wouldn't probably feel most of the time like a semi-detective story set in the not too distant future.
 
BTW, as a kind of "expanded universe" take on the film's esthetic, I have to ask :

What do you think the future cities of the East Block countries look like ? Do the Soviets, Poles, East Germans, etc. also have rundown slums made up of former showcase panelhouse estates, with lower-quality spinners vrooming past the peculiar geometric concrete monstrosities of public buildings and bureaus ? :p Tensions arising between the melting pot of old-settled populace and the newer generations of "immigrant citizens" from Cuba, central Asia and "brotherly socialist countries" like Vietnam, Angola, etc. ? :D Not too many neon advertisements, though - perestroika and market liberalization is still a no-no on this side of the curtain. :p Also, the environment is maybe even more of a mess than westward, due to the even weaker regulations in all walks of industry. Electric sheep (or owls) are the only sheep (or owls) left, and even they can only be afforded by well-off Party members. :D :(

Personally, I'd be intrigued to see a Blade Runner sequel set in a "futuristic communist" country, with all the early 80s Zeerust that would entail. :) You wouldn't even have to drop the whole plot concerning the Replicants - they could be handled in-story as an allegory for people persecuted by the regimes, with the East Block Blade Runner equivalents having vibes of the KGB/Stasi/STB, etc. Having the East Block ersatz-Deckard being a semi-villain - in the vein of the main character from The Lives of the Others or Walking Too Fast - could be an interesting touch. :cool:

The Replicant allegory would actually work pretty well: Formerly created as an experimental next step in the future of the "true socialist man", Replicants became rebellious and soon even hated by the regimes that originally praised them. Unable to find happiness in the notion of working hard and tirelessly for the benefit of communist society, they were reduced by governmental decrees to little more than forced labour convicts, alongside fully human ones - mining for minerals and uranium in Siberia, the Czech and Polish industrial zone and at the Martian colonies of the Warsaw Pact Space Command. Despite their once-touted function of a role model for society and employees, the East Block replicants became as despised as samizdat writers, Western popculture and goods smugglers or people unwilling to enter conscript service or work in a state-owned enterprise. They became the inversion of the uptight and loyal "new socialist man" that they were supposed to be, and their bad treatment by the authorities started to expose the denied flaws and contradictions of communist society. That is not to say the replicants are purely victims. As in the Los Angeles version, some of them are killers or de facto criminals, making them sympathetic antagonists at best. This would mirror the occassional armed/violent outbursts of East Block citizens againt their governments - with all the controversy that would entail, as in, e.g. the OTL case of the Mašín brothers. Heroic anti-regime resistance to some, petty killers and crooks to others. Moral ambiguity and all that.
 
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You've got a corker of a plot, Petike!

I'm far from an expert on Stanislaw Lem, but he covered a lot of those themes IIRC.

Heck, between how the Eastern Bloc juiced up athletes and generally took a ton of shortcuts for propoganda victories, disgraced (or just surplused) genetically-engineered supermen as your protagonists aren't that much of a stretch.

A huge chunk of Gibson's stories are about how technology or society set folks up for say a war or corporate strategy that got abandoned then marooning/marginalizing a lot of people.

Could you imagine people bred to be Stakhanovite workers and soldiers or super scientists having to stock shelves at Costco or GUM, do all the "customer service" nonsense that mangles normal humans' egos, much less Heroes of the Soviet Union?
 
Thanks for the compliment. :D Yeah, the athletes are an OTL example where you might find some additional sad parallels...

I got the idea rather spontaneously, after reading this series of articles before revisiting this thread. :eek: I might actually remake the idea one day into a BR fanfic of sorts. And yeah, due to Bratislava's bizarre architectural developments during the commie era, I think it would be an interesting choice for the fanfic's setting. A depressing blend of waning old architecture and megalomaniac brutalist projects, often done without subtlety. The former could form a big part of the decrepit "slums of yesteryear" (The Old Marketplace as a Bradbury Building equivalent could be interesting), while the latter would emphasize the dehumanizing nature of BR's LA (or any other stereotypical cyberpunk metropolis overcrowded with gloomy super-skyscrapers).


Part of the reason I started this thread was to get some food for thought for a BR-esque dystopian sci-fi film created in one of my timelines. Naturally, it reflects different geopolitics and developments, but also tackles several of the same anxieties and heavy themes. For the record, the popular culture of that timeline does develop a strand of artistic thought in some ways similar to cyberpunk. Given OTL BR's esthetic influences on the whole style, I wanted to discuss the style's early OTL history in a more in-depth manner. Hence why I started this thread.
 
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"Cyberpunk" was going to arrive sometime. Ballard is an obvious inspiration but even "straight" SF writers like Heinlein (Moon is a Harsh Mistress, Friday) could turn out stories which had much of the content of cyberpunk without the superficial style.
 
@ Derek Pullem- I agree with you that some flavors of dystopian SF would definitely emerge in the 1980's but whether they'd be cyberpunk as we see it is another question. I think we agree the ingredients for cyberpunk were all over the place in the 1970's and early 80's SF.
Trouble is, somebody has to combine them in such a way that they catch on.

William Gibson's Sprawl series drew on a lot of RL issues-- mass unemployment/underemployment forcing folks to find all kinds of sketchy side jobs, government pulling back, rapid technological change with nobody seemingly in charge.
Gibson didn't create those conditions, but he saw and extrapolated them in his fiction.
Where he really stood out was looking at those changes from the street level up.
Could s/b else have done that? Sure, but I think the attitudes and tropes employed would be different.

To get back to the OP, Blade Runner certainly showed everyone how cyberpunk looked and sounded. I must confess that when I read the Sprawl series after I saw BR, I saw the Sprawl through the lens Blade Runner provided.

YMMDV.
 
If Blade Runner had been more profitable when it first showed in the theater, and not faced such stiff competition, do you think they might have expanded into more movies based on the background?
 
I'd say yes.
Blade Runner could inspire a lot of imitators if it really took off.

I think for the most part, audiences' and critics' reactions were WTF rather than it sucked. Plus, it did well but not Star Wars box office and studio expectations were a bit too high.

Once upon a time, Ridley Scott wanted to be the John Ford of SF films.

However, John Ford benefited from several advantages. He worked in the studio system where they made hundreds of films a year. He could afford to have a disappointing but well-regarded movie out of the dozens he made.

Ridley Scott first got on the radar with Alien which did good business and so forth, but wasn't Star Wars. He didn't have the clout that say, Spielberg had, b/c Spielberg did several great to so-so movies that made $$$$. That's all the studios cared about.

Once the era of the blockbuster arrived, studios quit thinking they could do lots of decent-earning flicks out there to finance a few offbeat ones.
Every movie had to break 100 million to be worth it, which meant playing it safe.
That's why sequelitis came along in the 80's so they could milk a franchise for all it was worth. That's not my original idea. Harlan Ellison foams about it hilariously in Watching.

Anyhow, you'd need a whole different PR push and marketing campaign that would get it to more theaters and build WOM and thus more box-office.

Say it does. Then what? Do we see more Blade Runner films like the Alien franchise?
 
I'd say yes.
Blade Runner could inspire a lot of imitators if it really took off.

I think for the most part, audiences' and critics' reactions were WTF rather than it sucked. Plus, it did well but not Star Wars box office and studio expectations were a bit too high.

Once upon a time, Ridley Scott wanted to be the John Ford of SF films.

However, John Ford benefited from several advantages. He worked in the studio system where they made hundreds of films a year. He could afford to have a disappointing but well-regarded movie out of the dozens he made.

Ridley Scott first got on the radar with Alien which did good business and so forth, but wasn't Star Wars. He didn't have the clout that say, Spielberg had, b/c Spielberg did several great to so-so movies that made $$$$. That's all the studios cared about.

Once the era of the blockbuster arrived, studios quit thinking they could do lots of decent-earning flicks out there to finance a few offbeat ones.
Every movie had to break 100 million to be worth it, which meant playing it safe.
That's why sequelitis came along in the 80's so they could milk a franchise for all it was worth. That's not my original idea. Harlan Ellison foams about it hilariously in Watching.

Anyhow, you'd need a whole different PR push and marketing campaign that would get it to more theaters and build WOM and thus more box-office.

Say it does. Then what? Do we see more Blade Runner films like the Alien franchise?

Well I was a fan of the movie when it first came out. If there had been sequels maybe we get one from the Replicants POV. Maybe they find a way to get out of the built in lifespan and make a life. Who knows. I am not a huge fan of Scott, but he did help to create some good movies.

Even though I found the movie so so, the criminal way that John Crater was PRed was abominable.
 
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