Culture of Anglo-Dutch Union?

Finn

Let's say Queen Mary II's reproductive organs don't fail at their biological function and good ol' William and Mary end up with a lovely and healthy baby boy. Now what? This may mean a continuation of the personal union between England (possibly soon to be formed with Scotland into Britain) and the Netherlands. I don't know about what a possible later female monarch getting the crown in England would do in Netherlands, but let's just handwave it by saying that the political entanglements means that the Netherlands will just accept it. It may not even come up at all but the English allow female monarch if there are no male heirs in the way so it's something that you have to prepare for just in case.

Hanover was in a personal union with Britain for over a century and all it took was one of those aforementioned female monarchs to separate them. The political climate just wasn't right, and they had little to no cultural effect on each other by the later stages. Would something like that happen to the Netherlands? Would the British come to see them as an unimportant piece of land filled with Deutschemen, or worse, Continentals? Or would there be cultural exchange, cooperation overseas in colonial ventures, linguistic or even population exchange? Or would the differences in British and Dutch culture and politics drive apart the personal union prematurely?
 

Tangerine

A personal union won't result in political union unless one of the countries involved is vastly more powerful than the other. In such a case, the mightier country can use the dynastic connection as an opportunity to override the independent government of the weaker. In the case of two countries of roughly equal strength, England and the Netherlands for example, this isn't really possible.

The only way is to have both countries totally dedicated to long-term unification, which I think is unlikely for England and the Netherlands.
 

pompejus

One thing to remember about the personal union between the Netherlands and Englan/Scotland is that it realy wasn't a personal union at all. A stadholder is not just a weird Dutch name for a king and had a lot less power than a king. Even under the stronger stadholders like Maurice, Frederik Hedrik and Willem III, there was still a lot of power in the hands of the regents, the Dutch merchants who basicly ruled Holland.

Besides that, William III wasn't even stadholder of all of the Netherlands. The Dutch provinces of Friesland and Groningen (and I think Drenthe) were ruled by another stadholder. Other parts, like Dutch Brabant, Limburg and Flanders didn't even have a stadholder.

Another thing to remember is that the function of stadholder isn't hereditairy. When Willem III died and left no heir, he apointed the Frisian stadholder as his successor, although if the title was hereditairy, it should have gone to the ruler of Brandenburg. Actually before William III and after William III there weren't even stadholders in most provinces. Even though William III wanted the Frisian stadholder to succeed him, the Dutch just ignored his wishes.

So what does that mean for the Anglo-Dutch "personal union"? Because England is at this point stronger than the Netherlands in most ways, I think that the stadholder king will focus more on England than the Netherlands. So the Dutch will start to resent his involvement in Dutch politics. I think that after a while, they decide to appoint someone else as stadholder instead of the king and end the personal union. My idea would be more or less this:
The son of William III becomes king of England and Scotland and stadholder of various Dutch provinces. He focusses mainly on England, the Dutch aren't happy. He has two sons, so when he dies his eldest son becomes king of England, while the Dutch decide to make his other son stadholder.
 

Falastur

let's not forget the dutch didn't like kings and William's title was more a personal honour than an enduring rulership. the most likely result is within two generations the dutch refuse to confer the crown on William's successors and Britain ends up in personal union with a handful of sub-national units, which would be...interesting...
 

artha

When William dies and passes his titles to his son and the regents really absolutely, totally, extremely hate it. A lot :)p). As a result they decide to make the Netherlands a proper republic and strip William's son of his possesions. The country (the Netherlands) erupt in civil war between the republicans and royalists. The royalists hold control most of the country, but the most important areas (Holland, Zeeland, Friesland) are under republican rule. After a short bloody war the royalists win, with the help of the English, and the United Kingdom of England and the Netherlands is declared.

I'm not sure about the political support of both would-be fractions in the Netherlands, but I think this is the most realistic.
 

pompejus

Faeelin said:
Incidentally, did anyone ever consider this?
Click to expand...
Not as far as I know. William III wanted Johan Willem Friso, the Frisian stadholder, to become Stadholder (of Holland/Zeeland/Utrecht/Gelderland and Overijssel), while the rich merchants wanted to get rid of the stadholders. The title wasn't hereditairy (and never had been before), so I think Frederick of Prussia didn't even consider becoming stadholder. I doubt there would have been any support for it in the Netherlands anyway. There was a lot of bickering of the rest of the inheritence of William III. That is why both the Frisian stadholders as the king in Prussia became prince of Orange and why the Prussians got a couple of German Principalities (like Lingen and Moers) that used to belong to the Dutch stadholders.
 
Alex Richards

Alex Richards

Donor
If you want an Anglo-Dutch Union that could last, you'll need to go back to the rebellion itself. IIRC there was talk of offerring the crown to Elizabeth I.
 

Sandmannius

Banned
Alex Richards said:
If you want an Anglo-Dutch Union that could last, you'll need to go back to the rebellion itself. IIRC there was talk of offerring the crown to Elizabeth I.
Click to expand...

There wasn't just talk, the crown was offered to Elizabeth I, as well as several other important European monarchs.
 

Falastur

Sandmannius said:
There wasn't just talk, the crown was offered to Elizabeth I, as well as several other important European monarchs.
Click to expand...

As far as I recall, it was only offered to three people. First to the King of France, who declined. Second to the Duke of Anjou, who accepted, but proceeded to do little to ingratiate himself with the locals and eventually left after a year, deciding that he had no more interest in the place and that he was no longer wanted. Third and finally to Elizabeth, who declined on the basis that it would create too permanent an antagonism with Spain, but proceeded to accept an offer to create an "English protectorate of the Netherlands". She sent Leicester as her Lieutenant-Governor, but he failed to fit into court life and proved a poor general over his 12,000 English troops. In addition, standard Dutch tactics were to use the flood plains as their main tactical weapon, and the English army ranged ineffectually against the Spanish with little help from the Dutch and proving little support to them. Eventually after a year the entire deal was cancelled and the Dutch declared a republic.
 

Falastur

Thande said:
This strikes me as being rather more interesting than Elizabethan Holland.
Click to expand...

Hmm. I would say yes, for a generation. After that you have two eventualities, both of which arguably ruin the interest factor. One is that France seeks to annex Holland and sap its resources, money, etc for the benefit of France, and thus it becomes about as interesting as any other part of France. The other is that the risk of the above, tied with the way they've given up Catholic Spain for Catholic France and so on, mean that the Dutch turn on the French and militarily seek independence once more, resulting in a second slow struggle for independence involving much sieging of cities and flooding of land and no set piece battles at all. I regard the other two options (plus Option D - independence a la OTL) as being the option most likely to create the most interesting long-term Dutch story.
 

Finn

Wow, Elizabeth had some weird offers lobbed at herself, being offered the Dutch crown, getting proposed to by Ivan the Terrible...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top
Top