Culture in a surviving Ottoman Empire

Mostly you would need to solve the vowel problem and get everyone to use the bars and dots. You might also add letters for Slavic and Albanian sounds so everyone can use the same alphabet. Many of the latter exist anyway.
The Arebica script (developed by Bosnian Muslims) would probably be the best way to write Slavic languages in an Arabic-based script, but unlike other Arabic-derived scripts, it is a true alphabet using proper letters for all vowels (as opposed to letters for long vowels and diacritics for short ones).
 
Interestingly, the Jewish millet decided prior to the War to abandon their various languages (like Yiddish and Ladino) and adopt Turkish as their "national" language.
So, there would be no modern Hebrew as colloquial language? Or the Jews would use Hebrew within their community, and Ottoman Turkish outside it?
The Sultan will have truly enormous prestige and moral influence as he will no longer have a direct role in politics, so he will have clean hands and be the Islamic Pope. He will also likely have personal wealth on a scale difficult to imagine - consider what it would be like if one country contolled ALL the oil of the Middle East.
But how would he get his hands on the oil wells if he would be powerless monarch like British queen (and last sultan was powerless in OTL)? Saudi kings and Kuwaiti emirs are absolute rulers, so they are owners of all their countries' resources; but Ottoman absolutism ceased to exist in 1908...
 
So, there would be no modern Hebrew as colloquial language? Or the Jews would use Hebrew within their community, and Ottoman Turkish outside it?

Well, there wouldn't be colloquial Hebrew since it was a liturgical language until resurrected as a lingua-franca by the Zionists.

But how would he get his hands on the oil wells if he would be powerless monarch like British queen (and last sultan was powerless in OTL)? Saudi kings and Kuwaiti emirs are absolute rulers, so they are owners of all their countries' resources; but Ottoman absolutism ceased to exist in 1908...

Well, our Queen isn't on a shoestring budget!
 
There is a lot in our culture that you take for granted that is due to the early Ottomania wave:

If you think about Western classical music, what was missing in say, Mozart? That's right, percussion. ALL modern percussion is Turkish - all the drums, cymbals, etc.
Why do so many Muslims today claim that use of any musical instrument (other than the daff) is forbidden according to all four schools of thought?
 
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How would the Empire deal with the rise of Turkish Nationalism? Would it seek to co-opt it, or disregard it in favor of a more cosmopolitan "Ottoman" identity?

Also, about Arab literature: Assuming Egypt is it's own independent (or at least semi-independent) state, I think we will still see a fair amount of Arab literature and media. Egypt has been the focal point for Arab culture since before the turn of the century, and I do not see that changing much, regardless of the political landscape.
 

Keenir

Banned
So, there would be no modern Hebrew as colloquial language? Or the Jews would use Hebrew within their community, and Ottoman Turkish outside it?

OTL had some folks trying to revive Hebrew as a living language before WW1...they just didn't get much help from anybody, anywhere.

But how would he get his hands on the oil wells if he would be powerless monarch like British queen (and last sultan was powerless in OTL)? Saudi kings and Kuwaiti emirs are absolute rulers, so they are owners of all their countries' resources; but Ottoman absolutism ceased to exist in 1908...

the last Ottoman Caliph was not an Emperor in OTL - he had the spiritual power and religious authority (over Sunnis, though he ruled Shia and others)

as a paralel to your question, if the Pope in Rome says he wants a water fountain installed at a spot in the Vatican, who's gonna tell him no?
 
I just cannot believe that this thread actually escaped me !!


1) I have some disagreement. There were efforts to reform Ottoman Turkish in the late empire, particularly in grammar; people like Namik Kemal tried to avoid using Persian and Arabic constructions wherever possible. I think over time Ottoman would have been brought closer to colloquial Turkish, but without the disastrous purge of the Arabic and Persian vocabulary. At some point a new alphabet is going to have to be instituted to deal with the literacy problem - but that is more likely to be a modification of the Arabic script than jettisoning it for the Latin script. The 1860s were just as reform was starting to gather steam - in the late 19th & early 20th c, movement for language reform was getting stronger. Turkish would be a major language, and Ottoman would have a large impact on Central Asia, with modern media bringing the languages closer.

Interestingly, the Jewish millet decided prior to the War to abandon their various languages (like Yiddish and Ladino) and adopt Turkish as their "national" language. That would have been a fairly significant boost to Ottomanism, as it would add an important group to the mainstream. What this means if European events generate waves of refugees is hard to predict.

Novels were starting to become popular in the late empire - probably that would continue.

I'm not sure Arabic would suffer as it would have to become another official language of the empire with such a large Arab population - I suppose there being only one state would reduce the variety of literature which in OTL has multiple "national" output.


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Culturally, the empire is likely to gain confidence and most likely preserve a lot more Middle Eastern flavor largely abandoned in favor of blind imitation of the West. Yes, that means fezzes for everyone. You may even see another wave of Ottomania in the West like in the 18th c.

There is a lot in our culture that you take for granted that is due to the early Ottomania wave:

If you think about Western classical music, what was missing in say, Mozart? That's right, percussion. ALL modern percussion is Turkish - all the drums, cybals, etc. Oriental rugs in rich and middle-class houses are still sought after as a touch of sophistication - this began then.

Most likely Ottoman music, food, and art would have greater impact and influence over our culture.

2) Nationalism would be a problem, but I don't think this is insurmountable. Armenian radicalism began in the 1880s, and had completely taken over by the early 20th c, so this is going to be a real problem, but presuming the Ottomans manage to gain real sovereignty, the Armenians are likely to recognize that acquiring an independent state is not realistic - what they will turn to is difficult to project, but perhaps it would be more cultural autonomy.

3) Religion would be interesting. I largely agree with what you wrote. Hanefism will make steady inroads against Shafi`ism. The interior of Arabia would be brought under control over time - especially once motor vehicles become widely available - or the Hijaz Railway system could even be extended into the interior. That would make Wahhabism an irritant rather than a serious menace - and it's largely forgotten that Wahhabism, although crude, was a useful enema to Islam.

1) In Indonesia, there is a language agreed to be used for everyone since it is pretty much neutral for everyone, especially from the two largest and most influential ethnic groups. Similar rule applies to India as well, though Hindi isn't as neutral to the whole India as Bahasa Indonesia is to the whole Indonesia....

Here there is no such language to overreign the two largest ethnic groups of the Ottoman Empire. Will Arabic become like French in Canada or Catalonian in Spain, or something bigger ? If the latter, then I can't help but wondering about how Ottoman modern popular culture will develop. The way I see it, this kind of setting will generate branching of two major spheres pretty much equal to each other in one single country, instead of a single one like typically.....

Unlike Catalonian to Castillian or all the Indonesian ethnic languages to Bahasa, Arabic won't seem to me to become as inferior in the whole national context to Turkish as the previous cases. If not outright equal, their positioning in national importance vis a vis each other will be narrowly diagonal.

2) I've been always under the impression that Russia was responsible for OTL Armenian radicalism. Had the Ottomans not lost the war in 1877-78, which you have been saying as will mean a setback for ethnic nationalism in general, will it mean Armenian radicalism as IOTL won't rise ?

(Sorry for asking this in post-1900 forum, but I'm curious)

3) By Interior, does it mean interior of Yemen ? Since Saudi Arabia is pretty much Hanbali IIRC.....

If Yemen will get Hanafized as well, I wonder what kind of minor effect will be resulted by such occurrence to other Shafiite countries like East Africa and Indonesia which are sort-of linked to Yemen through their respective Hadhrami communities, the reason both regions became Shafiites in the first place.....

I won't take it as mass shifting of Indonesians and East Africans to Hanafite Madzhab, certainly. But at minimal, this will mean introduction of Hanafite school to both peoples familiarity through "converted" Tambis. Still I can't help but wondering the following consequences......
 
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Absolutely, positively no. The Greeks would sooner adopt the Arabic script. As moderate as the Empire might become, Islam was still the glue holding it together, and for the sake of continuity I can't see it making such a radical departure from tradition. I could certainly see some sort of reform, though.

Would they? Even if they achieve independence in the firt half of the XIX century? Or only if they stay in the empire? Or are you refering to the Greeks from Anatolia?
 
Would they? Even if they achieve independence in the firt half of the XIX century? Or only if they stay in the empire? Or are you refering to the Greeks from Anatolia?

I would assume that he only said it would be more likely to see Greeks doing it than the Ottomans abandoning Arabic script, but it's not a serious possibility either.

But then again, Greece won't survive Ottoman hegemony when the later has no more thing pulling it down anymore.....
 
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1) How would the Empire deal with the rise of Turkish Nationalism? Would it seek to co-opt it, or disregard it in favor of a more cosmopolitan "Ottoman" identity?

2) Also, about Arab literature: Assuming Egypt is it's own independent (or at least semi-independent) state, I think we will still see a fair amount of Arab literature and media. Egypt has been the focal point for Arab culture since before the turn of the century, and I do not see that changing much, regardless of the political landscape.

1) I believe Pasha has already covered that part.

2) Now that's an interesting point. If my previous mentioned suspicion would be correct, adding this will make an even more interesting mix.

No relations to political landscape at all, as the Ottoman Arabs won't be affiliated to Egypt in terms of national identity, but culturally it does mean something.
 
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