Cultural Effects on U.S post-war, w/Amerika Bomber?

[Curiousone]

Say Nazi Germany had an Amerika Bomber in operation 44-45, with roughly similar effects the V weapons had on the U.K. Something like a Horten H.XVIII, flying too high/fast to be intercepted at first (que crash U.S interceptor efforts).

Other than diverting a lot of resources to it's interception, creating propaganda value of strikes (maybe some landmarks are hit by early guided bombs), it's not militarily effective. Otherwise the war ends to OTL's dates, V-E day is May 8th 1945 etc.

Speculate here.. what is the effect on post-war American Psychology of going through 'the Blitz'? Is the myth of American exceptionalism weakened? A greater focus on 'civil defense' in the 50's era of 'atomic preparedness'? Role of the Air Force hightened? Influence on later ideas about M.A.D doctrine, A.B.M's? Later pop-culture references? Effects of urban re-development in New York if a few suburbs are burnt out?

 

[The Red]

Civil Defence posters such as this are likely to be taken somewhat more seriously, or might not be necessary to start with.

 

[CalBear]

Well, if it was a Horten, it wouldn't be a problem since the odds are overwhelming that it would crash long before it reached Iceland.

The Reich building more than a couple is also ABS, even if the damned thing would have actually stayed in the air.

As far as the effect, the U.S. is probably a lot less reluctant to visit upon what is left of Germany major bombing efforts against German civilian targets than was the case IOTL.

 

[Curiousone]

Well, if it was a Horten, it wouldn't be a problem since the odds are overwhelming that it would crash long before it reached Iceland.

The Reich building more than a couple is also ABS, even if the damned thing would have actually stayed in the air.

As far as the effect, the U.S. is probably a lot less reluctant to visit upon what is left of Germany major bombing efforts against German civilian targets than was the case IOTL.

Anti-Brake lock-System??

Yeah, I'm figuring a fairly large P.O.D previously that either increases German efficiency (the U.S thought after the war they'd only used a fraction of their scientific power) or frees up their resources.

 

[Helios Ra]

Well, if it was a Horten, it wouldn't be a problem since the odds are overwhelming that it would crash long before it reached Iceland.

The Reich building more than a couple is also ABS, even if the damned thing would have actually stayed in the air.

As far as the effect, the U.S. is probably a lot less reluctant to visit upon what is left of Germany major bombing efforts against German civilian targets than was the case IOTL.

Hard to imagine how bad that would end up being for Germany. Even more Dresden-scale destruction. Famines would be worse. The industry in even worse shape. I wonder if it might lead to more pressure on the Allie to behave even more radically in the post-war settlement.

 

[MattII]

Where are the resources for this mad-cap project coming from? if you're pulling it from the V2, fine, from the V1, also fine (though the British don't waste resources on intercepting them), but pulling from anything else and the Germans have just shortened the war by a couple of months.

 

[Curiousone]

Where are the resources for this mad-cap project coming from? if you're pulling it from the V2, fine, from the V1, also fine (though the British don't waste resources on intercepting them), but pulling from anything else and the Germans have just shortened the war by a couple of months.

Go back further, let Hitler not decide to conscript all the aviation designers as infantry for the Eastern Front before Barbarossa, have him insist they design 'vengance/terror weapons' for the coming war against America. Let the Germans fully mobilize earlier than they did OTL (1943) etc etc.

There's so, so many WI's around Axis performance in WW2 that start out with the P.O.D of 'assume rational leadership (stop Hitler being in power/making Nutty decisions after May 1940 or Nov/Dec 1941) in Germany' & look like complete ASB without it.

 

[Julian]

Go back further, let Hitler not decide to conscript all the aviation designers as infantry for the Eastern Front before Barbarossa, have him insist they design 'vengance/terror weapons' for the coming war against America. Let the Germans fully mobilize earlier than they did OTL (1943) etc etc.

There's so, so many WI's around Axis performance in WW2 that start out with the P.O.D of 'assume rational leadership (stop Hitler being in power/making Nutty decisions after May 1940 or Nov/Dec 1941) in Germany' & look like complete ASB without it.

The idea that Germany only mobilized in 1943 is a myth, it was running full tilt in 1939 and there was very little slack in it's economy. In reality the explosion in production from 1942 onwards was a mix of more efficient management, more resources/labor from conquered regions, and programs instituted well before 1943 that were only just coming to fruitation.

 

[Curiousone]

The idea that Germany only mobilized in 1943 is a myth, it was running full tilt in 1939 and there was very little slack in it's economy. In reality the explosion in production from 1942 onwards was a mix of more efficient management, more resources/labor from conquered regions, and programs instituted well before 1943 that were only just coming to fruitation.

http://www2.warwick.ac.uk/fac/soc/e...rison/public/ehr88postprint.pdf&embedded=true

P.12:

"At the height of Germany’s economic mobilization the principle of divided responsibilities meant that her economy remained full of untouched reserves-of industrial capacity, of female labour, of Himmler’s SS resources."

Quick, it's a new thread, everybody jump on how supposedly impossible the size of the required P.O.D would be rather than consider the angle of the scenario.

 

[PMN1]

There was a programe on Ch5 in the UK few days ago about German plans to bomb New York.

They had the usual Amerika Bomber suggestions, plus flying boats refueled from U-boats 1,000km offshore, a carrier aircraft for piloted bombs flown by suicide pilots etc but one early Messerschmitt proposal was for IFR, I couldn't really tell much from the diagram other than it was a trailing hose design.

Even with the resulting combination being at best able to make pin-prick attacks, is it something that would have Hitler etc salivating and wasting resources?

http://www.channel5.com/shows/hitlers-911/episodes/hitlers-911

Ignore the name of the programe...but there is a piccie of the IFR gear at 18.40.

 

[Curiousone]

.., is it something that would have Hitler etc salivating and wasting resources? ..

http://www.the-atlantic-times.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=221%3Ahitlers-target-new-york&catid=44%3Ajanuary-2011-politics&Itemid=2

“Fire,” wrote Albert Speer in his Spandau Diaries, put Hitler into a state of “deep arousal.”

Inside the Reich Chancellery, Hitler watched films of London burning, of Warsaw in a sea of flames, of convoys exploding. Speer recorded that every time the Nazi leader saw such images, he was consumed by a kind of lust. “**I never saw him so completely beside himself as toward the end of the war, when in his delirium he envisioned to himself and us the destruction of New York in firestorms**. He described how the skyscrapers would be transformed into gigantic, burning torches; how they collapsed onto one other and how the glow of the bursting city brightened the dark sky.”

Emphasis (**) mine.

You're right, he totally would never have gone for it, he just wasn't that much of a megalomaniacal, homicidal lunatic.

 

[Julian]

http://www2.warwick.ac.uk/fac/soc/e...rison/public/ehr88postprint.pdf&embedded=true

P.12:

"At the height of Germany’s economic mobilization the principle of divided responsibilities meant that her economy remained full of untouched reserves-of industrial capacity, of female labour, of Himmler’s SS resources."

Quick, it's a new thread, everybody jump on how supposedly impossible the size of the required P.O.D would be rather than consider the angle of the scenario.

Germany had a larger proportion of women in its war economy than any other combatant, and by the end of the war 1/5 of it's workers were foreign slaves. Steel production peaked in 1943 and stagnated thereafter, and after the intial burst of production armament growth was fairly stable, peaking in 1944. Germany was pushed to its limit long before 1943.

Most modern historians such as Tooze and Overy (The official German history of the war as well, apparently) have refuted this myth, which originated in the 50s.

Not trying to attack your scenario, it's very interesting, I just dislike this specific myth.

 

[Mosshadow]

http://www2.warwick.ac.uk/fac/soc/e...rison/public/ehr88postprint.pdf&embedded=true

P.12:

"At the height of Germany’s economic mobilization the principle of divided responsibilities meant that her economy remained full of untouched reserves-of industrial capacity, of female labour, of Himmler’s SS resources."

Quick, it's a new thread, everybody jump on how supposedly impossible the size of the required P.O.D would be rather than consider the angle of the scenario.

Yeah thats getting annoying. I would think that Americans would invest more into early warning systems like picket ships

 

[PMN1]

There was a programe on Ch5 in the UK few days ago about German plans to bomb New York.

They had the usual Amerika Bomber suggestions, plus flying boats refueled from U-boats 1,000km offshore, a carrier aircraft for piloted bombs flown by suicide pilots etc but one early Messerschmitt proposal was for IFR, I couldn't really tell much from the diagram other than it was a trailing hose design.

Even with the resulting combination being at best able to make pin-prick attacks, is it something that would have Hitler etc salivating and wasting resources?

http://www.channel5.com/shows/hitlers-911/episodes/hitlers-911

Ignore the name of the programe...but there is a piccie of the IFR gear at 18.40.

Screenshots

 

[MattII]

Go back further, let Hitler not decide to conscript all the aviation designers as infantry for the Eastern Front before Barbarossa, have him insist they design 'vengance/terror weapons' for the coming war against America. Let the Germans fully mobilize earlier than they did OTL (1943) etc etc.

This does squat because Goering is still in charge of the Luftwaffe, and you're still working with limited material resources. You'd have to overhaul the engines after each 12+ hour flight, and that would get expensive.

 

[Curiousone]

This does squat because Goering is still in charge of the Luftwaffe, and you're still working with limited material resources. You'd have to overhaul the engines after each 12+ hour flight, and that would get expensive.

Bump off Goering then.

V2's were quite expensive & in the end not militarily effective too.

The WI isn't 'make a Nazi-wank with the Amerika Bomber', its 'what changes post-war in America having had a Blitz all else being equal'.

 

[MattII]

"WI the Amerika Bomber worked" is not a PoD, it's an AHC.

Also, the most likely place to get resources for the Amerika Bomber project is other Luftwaffe projects, which will not help the Nazis. Most likely, you're going to get exactly one bomber raid, or two if the first one does catch the US by surprise, after that Britain and the US will stomp them all the more, not only for the attack, but because the resources that went into the Project didn't go into something useful.

 

[Curiousone]

"WI the Amerika Bomber worked" is not a PoD, it's an AHC.

Also, the most likely place to get resources for the Amerika Bomber project is other Luftwaffe projects, which will not help the Nazis. Most likely, you're going to get exactly one bomber raid, or two if the first one does catch the US by surprise, after that Britain and the US will stomp them all the more, not only for the attack, but because the resources that went into the Project didn't go into something useful.

This is near threadjacking. I don't really care *how* the bomber comes about in equivalent effect to the OTL V-weapons, (though I figure there were enough bureaucratic inefficiencies that stopped it for it to have been plausible) I'm concerned about the cultural effects of it coming about.

If the link provided to an academic assessment of German Mobilization doesn't click with what you think could have happened then fine, but challenge it with something as substantive or write out whatever larger P.O.D you think would be required instead de-railing the topic by setting up a strawman scenario where a shortsighted P.O.D in the late WW2 of OTL allows technical challenges to be overcome to produce one or two planes.

 

[MattII]

You have not provided us with sufficient background to be able to make a real judgement, just what this program replaces if going to be important, because if it's the V-weapons program, then you're likely to see a much later space-race, because the V2s won't have got everybody thinking about space, but if the V-2 goes through as well as this, then the space-race may well happen as in OTL. The only thing that can really be said is that in the US at least, the Nazis will be seen as even more high-tech but crazy than in OTL.

 

[sharlin]

I suppose the Americans would be more concerned about having defences for their cities and in there would be a greater concentration of them that there was in the post war period. Assuming that the raid is by a dozen scattered bombers with a light payload to reach that distance and that they don't accomplish much other than demolishing home and killing a limited number of civilians.

If somehow the Germans pulled of a BIG raid, 200 + bombers then there probably wouldn't be a Germany after the war, Mr Montegeau's plan would probably get drummed through.