Except that the huns did and they adapted to the Romans they were not some mindless horse they actually had tacitus and attilla and those before him adapted really well to siege warfare .
Also centuries lasting empire ? The thing died 98 years after it's founding and one could argue it defacto sized to exist in 1260s also by 1260
Ogedie was 55 when he died so unless he lives to his 70s the mongol invasion of europe would stop if he approved it in the first place
To make it last that long you need ogedie to live to his 70s (even if you take way the booze it's still unlikely) or have ogedie successor aprove it .
But not enough quickly and only about warfare, not state building, and they disappeared after Attila’s death. The Mongol Empire canonically lasted for 162 years, with his main successors States (Chagathai, Golden Horde, Yuan Dynasty, Ilkhanate) lasted longer. The author didn’t say specifically what was the POD, so it’s open: it could even be Ogodei died earlier a new, younger Great Khan (maybe Batu himself, he was almost elected in 1250), who avoids the vacancy during the invasion period.
They would it's not a big deal example after halagu want with many forces to the middle east mongke was left with more local chinse to attack the song on which we know he died in a world where mongke or another Khan sents the massive force to conquer europe you something close to halagus invasion of the middle east would be delayed or they would have to compensate with the locals the forces that they don't have kinda of like mongke did
Also Batu son? The panonian khanate or the territory there or how ever it's called won't be chosen by him ogedie or the Great khan has to chose who would govern there not batu .
Firstly, Hulegu invaded Middle East
after Batu and Subotai invaded Europe. Secondly, I said he didn’t need other forces other his own. Thirdly, Batu was not in great terms with Ogodei and his court so Batu was going to take the prize and keep it. Overall for the end of the conquest the Mongol Empire will be engulfed in wars between various families and asking the Far way mongol court who is the ruler of Europe will be not necessary. Fourthly, please, put some points and commas, I have difficulty to read your sentences.
First as mentioned by @alexmilman this is not an invasion force it's a big raid Batu was there to do that other wise he would have conquered hungary Batu would have retreated with or without ogedies death if he wanted am invasion the winter and spring of that year were not kind and really bad for a mobile army and the cuman revolt would have still happen (which Batu would spent a year dealing with sure the would have more forces to deal with it but still ) and heck other sources like
Rashīd al-Dīn tells us he left before knowing of ogedie death so Batu still likey pulls out in 1242
Now the debate is does he then call for ogedie for a larger army ? Or he attacks with what he has or is the man not gonna pull out
Also alex is saying that the center of the new khanate would be the panonian steppe the golden horde also established it self on the steppe sure they controled other areas but that was the core of the steppe sure you can argue over time the place would become more like the yuan or ilkhante that the center moves to urbanized areas
As for sieges (assuming it's still Batu original force) that he could have a great part of his force killed in mohi had the hungarian king attacked earlier while part of the army had crossed .
You mentioned krakow yet there is the example of sieges like Esztergom Székesfehérvár and the Pannonhalma Archabbey
Which the mongols fail to take the fortresses partially or fully (because this was not a main force they wanted loot and failed to get it )
No, It was an invasion, not a raid.
No, he would have continue the invasion.
No, many sources tell us the opposite. al-Din disliked the Mongols, so maybe it’s better pondering carefully his words.
Look, I didn’t say what center would have a Mongol State in Europe, I said that this state could conquest Europe. If you prefer Hungary, good for you, but this would not be limited only to Hungary and the rest of Europe “paying some tributes” and nothing else.
I don’t understand why are you speaking about Mohi about a siege.
If you said “The Mongols can’t siege cities” and I quoted examples of the opposite you can’t quote other examples of failed sieges because your assumption is fallen in every case: I don’t say Mongols are invincible in sieges but that they can do them and do them successfully.
And please, points and commas, please.
Not exactly because the "GH" at its greatest extent also included the White Horde.
Batu was not "the most respected" at the time of the conquest of Rus. It took a direct involvement of Ogdai to deal with the Genghisid princes (including his own son) who demonstrated not just a disrespect but unwillingness to consider Batu their leader. Only at the Western Campaign did he get a title of chu-van (sp), something of a "senior prince" and only Mongke officially recognized him as a "senior member of the family". Agha, AFAIK, means "chief" or "lord" and I never saw it being applied to Batu but I may be missing something. There were plenty of Genghisid princes, all of them the direct descendants, so this is not an argument but which one of them did embark upon a major conquest on his own initiative? Especially with an army given to him for a specific purpose.
And as another cultured man you can look at the map I attached to the post and figure out that the right Mongolian wing was on the German border before it turned and rode to Hungary. Which, if the invasion of Germany was planned, does not make too much sense.
What Batu decided we do not know but the raids mean little because there were raids to the Adriatic coast as well. Probably, if pushed by Ogdai, he would keep advancing just because he did not have a choice. But his personal priorities were in his domain, which still required a lot of work.
You are seemingly don't understand a difference between the raid and conquest. The Western Campaign, outside the Russian territories, was a raid.
If you are referencing something, please reference it correctly. Batu, as was required by the Mongolian formula, demanded recognition of a supremacy of the Great Khan. This was done on the Russian territories and in other places. Requests for recognition of the Great Khan's supremacy remained a standard item of the diplomatic communications with the "West" even well after the Western Campaign. Batu could not "usurp" the throne because it would not be up to him to assign a ruler of that territory. Actually, even within his own domain, assigning a senior Russian prince was a prerogative of the Great Khan all the way to Mongke's rule.
This is a first time I hear this story but Orda was Batu's elder brother and a ruler of the White Horde, not a "general". What he would be doing with the two domains separated so widely I have no clue.
Err... this is, presumably, a basics on the subject. Not because it is a plain but because it is a Westmost part of the Great Steppe, aka, area suitable for a nomadic life style.
I read your answer and now I have a headache. Evidently you didn’t read my message and continued your exposition from your pedantic seat. So I really don’t know how answer you and I will try:
- Batu was the designated heir of the eldest son of Gengis Khan, so one of the main princes of Mongol Empires. He was one of the more successful Mongol commanders. In 1250 the Kurultai offered him the Great Khan seat and he declined. And yes, you’re probably missing something.
- and as a cultured man you could make some
research and find that the Mongol wing in Poland, led by Orda and composed only by a single
tumen, had only the duty to cover right flank of the main army and make a recognition at German border. Then they had to reunite in Hungary before proceeding against Germany and France. But if you think that proceeding without communications with the rest of your army in an unknown enemy territory with only 10 000 soldiers is a good idea ask to Publius Varus. Using maps doesn’t mean knowing understand them.
- No, I understand perfectly the difference and I feel a little insulted by your insinuation. The point is that you considered the Batu/Subutai’s campaign a raid, but instead it was-I believe-the first step of a multiyear invasion of Europe.
- Again, I know what a steppe is and again I feel a little insulted by you. The point is: the Mongols were limited
only to the steppes? No, of course, China was a not steppes, Persia was not steppes. So saying “Hungary is the only place where Mongols would have established themselves” is simply wrong.