Cultural effects of a Mongol Western Europe

This itself is devastating for Western Europe, as we saw from Russia's diverted development, away from the Rus states to Muscovy's autocracy and extraction model. I have seen this across countries in my experience as a development economist. Whenever the biggest buck lies in taking a greater share of the rent seeking, you completely abolish all incentives to make the necessary compromises to allow wealth creation. Compromises with the nobility are set back in the monarchs favour, and free cities are completely screwed. The despot most willing to use violence comes out on top. And the disproportionate power going to the Mongol favored state means innovative governance models don't have room to survive.

And this is all before we get to the devastation of Europe's universities that kick started the renaissance.
How? Sure you take them out of germany but italy and france are Still there .
Also how long would it last ? Unlike the golden horde who was in a better position the panonian khanate would have been established by ogedie giving batus conquest to some one else (which already sows the seeds of trouble ) it's in a place were pasture is limited and their neighbor has tensions with them (both would have as Batu successors would feel that the land is theirs and the panonian khanate would try to expand east to get more pastures ) i mean do to various reasons from the ending of the little optimum to volcanos
The cold snap of the 1240s and especially the 1250s was bad one making the situation of the panonian khanate worse I don't think it would last nearly as long as the golden horde did .
 
It’s a common mistake to compare Mongols and Huns: Huns had not skills to adapt and integrate knowledge of their subjects and didn’t assimilate technologies and strategies of other cultures/states. They exploded under Attila and died with him, with their empire collapsed extraordinarily quickly and almost without cultural legacy after Attila’s death. At the opposite Mongols built a centuries-lasting empire that covered a large part of Asia and part of Europe, created dynasties and reigned as legitimated monarchs of their subjects. At the they left a huge cultural legacy in form of Mongolia itself and various people in Central Asia, Siberia and Tarim Basin.
Castles and fortifications existed in Asia too, but they didn’t stop the Mongols: India, China, Korea, Corasmia, Persia,... They all had defensive walls, towers, fortifications and all the stuff necessary to defend their cities. And they fell before the Mongols in few years. Do you never heard about the Long Wall? The Mongols overcame it easily and then descended in China, burning and taking every Chinese city in less then a decade. And this before integrating Chinese engineers in their army. I don’t say Europeans kings would not oppose resistance but I say by 1260 at least there would not be more.
Except that the huns did and they adapted to the Romans they were not some mindless horse they actually had tacitus and attilla and those before him adapted really well to siege warfare .
Also centuries lasting empire ? The thing died 98 years after it's founding and one could argue it defacto sized to exist in 1260s also by 1260
Ogedie was 55 when he died so unless he lives to his 70s the mongol invasion of europe would stop if he approved it in the first place
To make it last that long you need ogedie to live to his 70s (even if you take way the booze it's still unlikely) or have ogedie successor aprove it .

there is not a scenario where “the mongol want more success in Europe they need to focus more on it and less on the rest of the world”: Mongols were divided in different and autonomous hordes and that was enough. Batu’s Golden Horde planned and led invasion of Europe, not the Great Khan in China, the Ilkhanate or the other khanate in Central Asia, that could have continue their respective expansionist plans (by the way, not really big, they had just conquered all they wanted).
- Charlemagne was Roman as George Washington was Chinese but the Pope crowned him Emperor and so did for all his (Germanic) successors. Papacy recognised as legitimate authorities many barbarian rulers (kings of Goths, Longobards, Franks,...) after they converted to Christianity, a faith that, culturally speaking, was and is one of best integration mean never seen in human history. The Mongols had friendly relationships with Christianity and its various Churches: they hosted many Eastern Christians (especially Nestorians) and catholic monks (especially Franciscans) in their courts and had impressive cultural exchange with them. The same Kublay Khan prayed Jesus, together with Buddha and Mehmet. So the Batu’s Mongols would follow the Ilkhanate way: after Batu’s death shortly after the end of the conquest, his son would create a court to learn as reign over their new subjects, with many Church thinkers and Latin speakers within this. Mongols could easily find the bishops and priest a good administrative structure as it was used under the HRE. After the death of the second Khan “friend of Christians”, his successor would have convert and be crowed by the Pope as Khan/Emperor. For Rome’s point of view is a good development as at the same time Christianity gains control over pagan Baltic’s, Orthodox Russians and Muslim euroasiatic plains
They would it's not a big deal example after halagu want with many forces to the middle east mongke was left with more local chinse to attack the song on which we know he died in a world where mongke or another Khan sents the massive force to conquer europe you something close to halagus invasion of the middle east would be delayed or they would have to compensate with the locals the forces that they don't have kinda of like mongke did
Also Batu son? The panonian khanate or the territory there or how ever it's called won't be chosen by him ogedie or the Great khan has to chose who would govern there not batu .
Yes, and that was exactly the plan Batu had in mind: a multiyear invasion to conquer Europe.
As he explained in this same message the Golden Horde would carry on the invasion while the Great Khan would eliminate the last Songs and Hulegu move toward Middle East.
As mentioned ogedie would have to approve and he is not immortal his death would put an end to amy campaing and the next khan would have to decide if he wants to continue and as mentioned halagus invasion of the middle east would have to be difirent as the great khan (if he sent forces to Europe ) has to send smaller forces to halagu and he has to compensate with locals .

I’m glad to find some cultured person about this too often forgotten issue. I know the denominations’ differences but I tend to use main denominations, even when retroactive, to avoid confusion with other people who don’t know the differences between Golden and Blue Hordes and similar.
The Kurultai (if we want to be precise with English interpretation; if not it’s Qoriltay) had approved Batu’s invasion and his targets, so this is a no issue. By the way, Batu was the most respected and prestigious prince of Mongol Empire (agha, “elder brother”), direct descendent of Gengis Khan and powerful leader. I’m pretty sure no one would have objected for some independent initiative. The Adriatic Sea was definite as “the last sea” only retroactively, to cover the fact their mission essentially failed.
As you’re a cultured man you will know surely the European geography, so you will know that Hungary has a border with Austria, yes? In fact Batu had just decided Vienna and Austria to be the next targets: the first Mongol raiders moved against them, attacking Wiener Neustadt and Korneuburg in 1241, before Ogodei’s death. Mongol strategy was based on mobile tumen, that attacked the enemy and then reunited to form a larger force and then re-divided to attack from more sides. At the same way Subutai and Batu invade Hungary and destroyed it while Orda invaded Poland, penetrating until Meissen, near Dresden, making recognition of German lands, before marching south to reunite with Batu in order to attack Germany with a larger army.
The attack was not a conquest? Because they didn’t set up loyal rulers? I’m sorry but you are simply wrong. Batu himself clarified it announcing to Frederick II he was coming to usurp his throne. Many princes and eastern rulers (Polish, Lithuanians, Rutenians) swear loyalty to the Mongols to have spared their life. Bela IV refused it and was forced to his himself on a little island in Adriatic Sea and offering all his lands to Frederick II in exchange of aid that never came. Instead Batu assigned all Hungary to Orda, one of his generals. I didn’t understand why Hungarian plains are the only place where Mongols can establish themselves: because plains? Even Germany, Italy and France have them. Because in the rest of Europe there mountains? What about Persia or China or Central Asia?
That’s not “poetry”, that’s History: Batu and Subutai’s invasion was approved by the Mongols leadership, they planned to conquest the Continent and they had all the means to succeeded in it, as they demonstrated in previous endless campaigns. If you think European armies can take on them, ask Hungarians. If you think they “just looting the countryside and ignore besieging cities”, ask to Krakow’s citizens. If you think they are not able to besiege a city or cross a river ask to the Long Wall and the Yellow River how much they lasted
..this makes no sense
First as mentioned by @alexmilman this is not an invasion force it's a big raid Batu was there to do that other wise he would have conquered hungary Batu would have retreated with or without ogedies death if he wanted am invasion the winter and spring of that year were not kind and really bad for a mobile army and the cuman revolt would have still happen (which Batu would spent a year dealing with sure the would have more forces to deal with it but still ) and heck other sources like
Rashīd al-Dīn tells us he left before knowing of ogedie death so Batu still likey pulls out in 1242
Now the debate is does he then call for ogedie for a larger army ? Or he attacks with what he has or is the man not gonna pull out

Also alex is saying that the center of the new khanate would be the panonian steppe the golden horde also established it self on the steppe sure they controled other areas but that was the core of the steppe sure you can argue over time the place would become more like the yuan or ilkhante that the center moves to urbanized areas
As for sieges (assuming it's still Batu original force) that he could have a great part of his force killed in mohi had the hungarian king attacked earlier while part of the army had crossed .
You mentioned krakow yet there is the example of sieges like Esztergom Székesfehérvár and the Pannonhalma Archabbey
Which the mongols fail to take the fortresses partially or fully (because this was not a main force they wanted loot and failed to get it )
 
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I’m glad to find some cultured person about this too often forgotten issue. I know the denominations’ differences but I tend to use main denominations, even when retroactive, to avoid confusion with other people who don’t know the differences between Golden and Blue Hordes and similar.

Not exactly because the "GH" at its greatest extent also included the White Horde.

The Kurultai (if we want to be precise with English interpretation; if not it’s Qoriltay) had approved Batu’s invasion and his targets, so this is a no issue. By the way, Batu was the most respected and prestigious prince of Mongol Empire (agha, “elder brother”), direct descendent of Gengis Khan and powerful leader. I’m pretty sure no one would have objected for some independent initiative. The Adriatic Sea was definite as “the last sea” only retroactively, to cover the fact their mission essentially failed.

Batu was not "the most respected" at the time of the conquest of Rus. It took a direct involvement of Ogdai to deal with the Genghisid princes (including his own son) who demonstrated not just a disrespect but unwillingness to consider Batu their leader. Only at the Western Campaign did he get a title of chu-van (sp), something of a "senior prince" and only Mongke officially recognized him as a "senior member of the family". Agha, AFAIK, means "chief" or "lord" and I never saw it being applied to Batu but I may be missing something. There were plenty of Genghisid princes, all of them the direct descendants, so this is not an argument but which one of them did embark upon a major conquest on his own initiative? Especially with an army given to him for a specific purpose.

As you’re a cultured man you will know surely the European geography, so you will know that Hungary has a border with Austria, yes?

And as another cultured man you can look at the map I attached to the post and figure out that the right Mongolian wing was on the German border before it turned and rode to Hungary. Which, if the invasion of Germany was planned, does not make too much sense.


In fact Batu had just decided Vienna and Austria to be the next targets: the first Mongol raiders moved against them, attacking Wiener Neustadt and Korneuburg in 1241, before Ogodei’s death.

What Batu decided we do not know but the raids mean little because there were raids to the Adriatic coast as well. Probably, if pushed by Ogdai, he would keep advancing just because he did not have a choice. But his personal priorities were in his domain, which still required a lot of work.



The attack was not a conquest? Because they didn’t set up loyal rulers? I’m sorry but you are simply wrong.

You are seemingly don't understand a difference between the raid and conquest. The Western Campaign, outside the Russian territories, was a raid.

Batu himself clarified it announcing to Frederick II he was coming to usurp his throne.

If you are referencing something, please reference it correctly. Batu, as was required by the Mongolian formula, demanded recognition of a supremacy of the Great Khan. This was done on the Russian territories and in other places. Requests for recognition of the Great Khan's supremacy remained a standard item of the diplomatic communications with the "West" even well after the Western Campaign. Batu could not "usurp" the throne because it would not be up to him to assign a ruler of that territory. Actually, even within his own domain, assigning a senior Russian prince was a prerogative of the Great Khan all the way to Mongke's rule.


Instead Batu assigned all Hungary to Orda, one of his generals.
This is a first time I hear this story but Orda was Batu's elder brother and a ruler of the White Horde, not a "general". What he would be doing with the two domains separated so widely I have no clue.

I didn’t understand why Hungarian plains are the only place where Mongols can establish themselves: because plains?

Err... this is, presumably, a basics on the subject. Not because it is a plain but because it is a Westmost part of the Great Steppe, aka, area suitable for a nomadic life style.
 
he never led an army of more then 30 000 too
Louis IX had no need to, his enemies were generally all localized European foes. In the First Crusade, we have an army size once fully collected, of over 41,000 operating in faraway lands. In the Third Crusade, we have an estimated 75,000 operating in faraway lands, without land connection. If we are to say have a Mongol threat that is faced by the Empire, France and the Holy See, the army sizes that they could gather to face the Mongols would be in large excesses of 75,000 and would exceed by leaps and bounds most of the Mongol's foes. Mongol armies in total tended to not exceed 50-70k from what I gather. Even the later Yuan invasion of Japan, which supposedly was a truly massive effort on their part, acquired only around 100,000 warriors, many of whom were Chinese foot soldiers and not hardened horsemen. Even in small border bouts in Italy, we have battles involving 40,000 warriors in this period. If the Mongols intended to truly conquer Germany and France, they would face far excess of these numbers and a population of millions of inhabitants, exceeding the Song Dynasty.

hen Mongols would have crossed the Rhine and invaded France. I don’t understand the point about the Rhine: the Goths, the Franks and all the other barbarians people crossed it without problems although not having neither engineers or technical know-how, that Mongols had, but all speak about the latter as they were allergic to the water.
The Mongols were unable to cross the Gangwha Strait in their invasion of Korea and were completely blocked at the Yangtze by even the scuttle brained Southern Song and their fortification network. Along the Rhine River, you have many cities with fortifications: Strasbourg, Speyer, Mannheim, Worms, Mainz-Frankfurt, Bingen, Koblenz, Bonn, Cologne, Dusseldorf, Duisburg-Essen, Cleves and more until we get to the swampy sections in the Netherlands and so forth. The Rhine on average is going to have a width of 400-500 m, this is roughly equal to the Gangwha strait in Korea, which gave the Mongols such trouble over a period of 20-30 years. Other rivers that the Mongols crossed such as the Yalu, are on average only 50m or so.... Considering that this was seen as a wide river to the Mongols, they have little chance of crossing the Rhine without substantial European assistance locally, when you consider the large amount of fortifications across the river all interspersed strategically to provide defense in depth so to speak. The Yangzte has a similar width and a not dissimilar level of fortification and the Mongols were dumbfounded as to how to cross the river without permitting mass conscription of Chinese sailors, which was not possible in large amounts until later eras. Mongol policy was so opposed to crossing such a fortified river, that they attempted to march through Sichuan and Tibet into Burma and thence into Vietnam in an attempt to bypass the river and strike the Song from the south. One would be unable to do this in Europe. Thus, the only way for the Mongols to sustain a crossing is to gather men sufficient to cross the river from Europe, namely Germans and other inhabitants from the area. Which would require an assimilation, which the Mongols may not have enough time for, considering the difficulty of grazing space and likewise the incoming attacks upon them from France or from Italy via the impenetrable Brenner Pass at Verona.

It should also not be discounted, that the Franks were a people who were riverine people. Making fun of them by saying 'barbarian' peoples is ridiculous. They were a people who resided near water, both the sea and the Rhine river and were extremely well acquainted with riverine transportation to a degree that the Mongols did or could not until they had sufficiently absorbed Chinese and Persian cultural norms. The Franks and other Germanic peoples had also spent the past 300 years acting as warriors and associated trading peoples with the Roman empire all across the Rhine and Danube riverways, the level of association with rivers with them as well as to sedentary live in comparison to the Mongols is very large.

Yes, and that was exactly the plan Batu had in mind: a multiyear invasion to conquer Europe.
As he explained in this same message the Golden Horde would carry on the invasion while the Great Khan would eliminate the last Songs and Hulegu move toward Middle East.
Which was a huge underestimation of his enemies. The campaigns against the Song were a complete failure until many decades later, this despite the Song infighting and difficulties. The invasion of Korea was another failure of Ogedai, as his forces were constantly blocked at the Gangwha and defeated in the field by the Goryeo at severl intervals. It took until the 1250s, after 30 years of war for the Mongols to secure a strangehold upon Korea, a small country in comparison to the demogrpahic powerhouses of France, Germany and Italy; likewise despite Song divisions, the Mongol invasion of the Song lasted until 1279, if this is not an utter failure by Ogedai, then I do not know what is. It is not as if Southern China cannot be conquered rapidly... Indeed, Liu Bang defeated Xiang Yu and Long Ju in the Han-Chu contention in less than five years of war, wherein the entirety of the Yangtze river basin made up of the historical Chu-Wu-Shu regions were conquered by the Han forces. What we find is that Ogedai and the Mongols had very real weaknesses... Namely the ability to deal with riverine fortresses, fortresses in general and against irregular armies such as the Korean Righteous Army of Millennialist Buddhist sectarians.

In the Mongol invasions of Korea, we find that even small forts composed of only 1-10k defenders could outlast Mongol vanguard forces when well placed on hills. In the case of the sieges of Gwangju and Cheoin, the Korean forces under irregulars like the Buddhist Righteous Army, were able to disarm and dismantle entire Mongol invasions with serious hardened defenses of fortified locales and focusing upon striking Mongol leaders in early phases of battle. The Japanese under Takezaki Suenaga with only 10,000 or so soldiers repulsed 26,000 Mongols by entering battle with the focus of engaging in duels and slaying Mongol commanders in opening phases, alongside taking bold stances. Such bold moves by the smaller Japanese army led to a breach of morale by the Mongols who took flight very rapidly. Later, the Japanese would rally much larger armies of 80,000 total to face the Yuan invasion, such a defense would likely be very successful even without the Kamikaze and other difficulties the Mongols possessed. Going solely off the first campaign, the Japanese were more than capable of hammering the Mongols in pitched field battles. And even more so considering the success of smaller Korean armies in dislodging Mongol vanguards in long term multiple year wars across Korea.
 
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The working argument for most people is that the further west the mongols go the more they would find themselves needing to find a consistent answer to European castles and fortifications which ran counter to their preferred form of calvery warfare.
As well as agreeing with those people who noted that the Mongols used whatever tactic made sense, and had Chnese siege engineers, I would also point out a major trump card depending on when this happens.

The Mongols had black powder. With that, reducing castles becomes far easier - undermining and packing the mine full of powder, or using bombard-type weapons.
 
I could see Italians giving the Mongols fits, they'd likely develop a pike and crossbow tactic that would do well against the mongols defensively, plus with mountainous terrain they'd likely need a navy to have any chance of success, and the Italian states had a solid navy , and would band together for this.
 
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Without a major disagreement on your major points:

Maximum width of Volga River is 26km. Оn a level of Nizhi Novgorod it is over 500 meters, on Kazan level - over 1 km, in Yaroslavl region - 500-650 meters, on Volgograd level - 1-2km .

Dnieper in a lower flow is 500-600 meters on Kiev level - 400-600 meters

Danube at Budapest - 560 meters and in a lower flow up to 1km.

So the Mongols had been routinely crossing the major rivers comparable or wider than the Rhine.
 
As well as agreeing with those people who noted that the Mongols used whatever tactic made sense, and had Chnese siege engineers, I would also point out a major trump card depending on when this happens.

The Mongols had black powder. With that, reducing castles becomes far easier - undermining and packing the mine full of powder, or using bombard-type weapons.
What ... Cannons in this Time where horrible
How is this going to damage a castle
220px-Western_Xia_cannon.jpg


better spent that time in trebuchets as for mining Sure but castles where constructed on storing rock foundations so you're going to need a lot of barrels since gunpowder got better compared to the 13th century .
 
Except that the huns did and they adapted to the Romans they were not some mindless horse they actually had tacitus and attilla and those before him adapted really well to siege warfare .
Also centuries lasting empire ? The thing died 98 years after it's founding and one could argue it defacto sized to exist in 1260s also by 1260
Ogedie was 55 when he died so unless he lives to his 70s the mongol invasion of europe would stop if he approved it in the first place
To make it last that long you need ogedie to live to his 70s (even if you take way the booze it's still unlikely) or have ogedie successor aprove it .
But not enough quickly and only about warfare, not state building, and they disappeared after Attila’s death. The Mongol Empire canonically lasted for 162 years, with his main successors States (Chagathai, Golden Horde, Yuan Dynasty, Ilkhanate) lasted longer. The author didn’t say specifically what was the POD, so it’s open: it could even be Ogodei died earlier a new, younger Great Khan (maybe Batu himself, he was almost elected in 1250), who avoids the vacancy during the invasion period.
They would it's not a big deal example after halagu want with many forces to the middle east mongke was left with more local chinse to attack the song on which we know he died in a world where mongke or another Khan sents the massive force to conquer europe you something close to halagus invasion of the middle east would be delayed or they would have to compensate with the locals the forces that they don't have kinda of like mongke did
Also Batu son? The panonian khanate or the territory there or how ever it's called won't be chosen by him ogedie or the Great khan has to chose who would govern there not batu .
Firstly, Hulegu invaded Middle East after Batu and Subotai invaded Europe. Secondly, I said he didn’t need other forces other his own. Thirdly, Batu was not in great terms with Ogodei and his court so Batu was going to take the prize and keep it. Overall for the end of the conquest the Mongol Empire will be engulfed in wars between various families and asking the Far way mongol court who is the ruler of Europe will be not necessary. Fourthly, please, put some points and commas, I have difficulty to read your sentences.
First as mentioned by @alexmilman this is not an invasion force it's a big raid Batu was there to do that other wise he would have conquered hungary Batu would have retreated with or without ogedies death if he wanted am invasion the winter and spring of that year were not kind and really bad for a mobile army and the cuman revolt would have still happen (which Batu would spent a year dealing with sure the would have more forces to deal with it but still ) and heck other sources like
Rashīd al-Dīn tells us he left before knowing of ogedie death so Batu still likey pulls out in 1242
Now the debate is does he then call for ogedie for a larger army ? Or he attacks with what he has or is the man not gonna pull out

Also alex is saying that the center of the new khanate would be the panonian steppe the golden horde also established it self on the steppe sure they controled other areas but that was the core of the steppe sure you can argue over time the place would become more like the yuan or ilkhante that the center moves to urbanized areas
As for sieges (assuming it's still Batu original force) that he could have a great part of his force killed in mohi had the hungarian king attacked earlier while part of the army had crossed .
You mentioned krakow yet there is the example of sieges like Esztergom Székesfehérvár and the Pannonhalma Archabbey
Which the mongols fail to take the fortresses partially or fully (because this was not a main force they wanted loot and failed to get it )
No, It was an invasion, not a raid.
No, he would have continue the invasion.
No, many sources tell us the opposite. al-Din disliked the Mongols, so maybe it’s better pondering carefully his words.
Look, I didn’t say what center would have a Mongol State in Europe, I said that this state could conquest Europe. If you prefer Hungary, good for you, but this would not be limited only to Hungary and the rest of Europe “paying some tributes” and nothing else.
I don’t understand why are you speaking about Mohi about a siege.
If you said “The Mongols can’t siege cities” and I quoted examples of the opposite you can’t quote other examples of failed sieges because your assumption is fallen in every case: I don’t say Mongols are invincible in sieges but that they can do them and do them successfully.
And please, points and commas, please.
Not exactly because the "GH" at its greatest extent also included the White Horde.



Batu was not "the most respected" at the time of the conquest of Rus. It took a direct involvement of Ogdai to deal with the Genghisid princes (including his own son) who demonstrated not just a disrespect but unwillingness to consider Batu their leader. Only at the Western Campaign did he get a title of chu-van (sp), something of a "senior prince" and only Mongke officially recognized him as a "senior member of the family". Agha, AFAIK, means "chief" or "lord" and I never saw it being applied to Batu but I may be missing something. There were plenty of Genghisid princes, all of them the direct descendants, so this is not an argument but which one of them did embark upon a major conquest on his own initiative? Especially with an army given to him for a specific purpose.



And as another cultured man you can look at the map I attached to the post and figure out that the right Mongolian wing was on the German border before it turned and rode to Hungary. Which, if the invasion of Germany was planned, does not make too much sense.




What Batu decided we do not know but the raids mean little because there were raids to the Adriatic coast as well. Probably, if pushed by Ogdai, he would keep advancing just because he did not have a choice. But his personal priorities were in his domain, which still required a lot of work.





You are seemingly don't understand a difference between the raid and conquest. The Western Campaign, outside the Russian territories, was a raid.



If you are referencing something, please reference it correctly. Batu, as was required by the Mongolian formula, demanded recognition of a supremacy of the Great Khan. This was done on the Russian territories and in other places. Requests for recognition of the Great Khan's supremacy remained a standard item of the diplomatic communications with the "West" even well after the Western Campaign. Batu could not "usurp" the throne because it would not be up to him to assign a ruler of that territory. Actually, even within his own domain, assigning a senior Russian prince was a prerogative of the Great Khan all the way to Mongke's rule.



This is a first time I hear this story but Orda was Batu's elder brother and a ruler of the White Horde, not a "general". What he would be doing with the two domains separated so widely I have no clue.



Err... this is, presumably, a basics on the subject. Not because it is a plain but because it is a Westmost part of the Great Steppe, aka, area suitable for a nomadic life style.
I read your answer and now I have a headache. Evidently you didn’t read my message and continued your exposition from your pedantic seat. So I really don’t know how answer you and I will try:
- Batu was the designated heir of the eldest son of Gengis Khan, so one of the main princes of Mongol Empires. He was one of the more successful Mongol commanders. In 1250 the Kurultai offered him the Great Khan seat and he declined. And yes, you’re probably missing something.
- and as a cultured man you could make some research and find that the Mongol wing in Poland, led by Orda and composed only by a single tumen, had only the duty to cover right flank of the main army and make a recognition at German border. Then they had to reunite in Hungary before proceeding against Germany and France. But if you think that proceeding without communications with the rest of your army in an unknown enemy territory with only 10 000 soldiers is a good idea ask to Publius Varus. Using maps doesn’t mean knowing understand them.
- No, I understand perfectly the difference and I feel a little insulted by your insinuation. The point is that you considered the Batu/Subutai’s campaign a raid, but instead it was-I believe-the first step of a multiyear invasion of Europe.
- Again, I know what a steppe is and again I feel a little insulted by you. The point is: the Mongols were limited only to the steppes? No, of course, China was a not steppes, Persia was not steppes. So saying “Hungary is the only place where Mongols would have established themselves” is simply wrong.
 
But not enough quickly and only about warfare, not state building, and they disappeared after Attila’s death. The Mongol Empire canonically lasted for 162 years, with his main successors States (Chagathai, Golden Horde, Yuan Dynasty, Ilkhanate) lasted longer. The author didn’t say specifically what was the POD, so it’s open: it could even be Ogodei died earlier a new, younger Great Khan (maybe Batu himself, he was almost elected in 1250), who avoids the vacancy during the invasion period.

162 years ? What the united mongol empire lasted 94 years until the death of kublai and heck after the toluid civil war the empire was split in almost everything the author said " I think so if Ogedei Khan didn't die" he is alluding to that .
Also he was not great khan nor was he close to the elections he held in 1250 where his own election in his territory which had questionable validity at first and he refused the tittle so they chose mongke but they had to have another election in mongolia to confirm this .

Firstly, Hulegu invaded Middle East after Batu and Subotai invaded Europe. Secondly, I said he didn’t need other forces other his own. Thirdly, Batu was not in great terms with Ogodei and his court so Batu was going to take the prize and keep it. Overall for the end of the conquest the Mongol Empire will be engulfed in wars between various families and asking the Far way mongol court who is the ruler of Europe will be not necessary. Fourthly, please, put some points and commas, I have difficulty to read your sentences.
My apologies for that, as for the middle east precisely my point I said any invasion of the middle east similar to the halagus would be delayed or they would compensate with locals ( if the great khan send troops to him ) .


As for Batu taking the price and keeping it that would be treason
Batu vas acting like viceroy and despite him not attending the election of the next great khan
At no point, however, did he openly challenge the authority of the Great Khan.
And despite this guyuk , didn't like how he was gaining more freedoms and acting and called him (nothing happens because he died )
Mongke was allies with batu

Batu keeping the price for himself against ogedie command is character asssination for him , he is commiting treason , who is to say suboatia and others don't turn against him ? And if they don't or they do but Batu wins ...
Well he better pray that ogedie dies or the mongol army is not coming for conquest of europe rather to deal with him .

No, It was an invasion, not a raid.
No, he would have continue the invasion.
No, many sources tell us the opposite. al-Din disliked the Mongols, so maybe it’s better pondering carefully his words.
Look, I didn’t say what center would have a Mongol State in Europe, I said that this state could conquest Europe. If you prefer Hungary, good for you, but this would not be limited only to Hungary and the rest of Europe “paying some tributes” and nothing else.
I don’t understand why are you speaking about Mohi about a siege.
If you said “The Mongols can’t siege cities” and I quoted examples of the opposite you can’t quote other examples of failed sieges because your assumption is fallen in every case: I don’t say Mongols are invincible in sieges but that they can do them and do them successfully.
And please, points and commas, please.

It was a raid everything that was not the Rus states cumans and volga Bulgaria was a big raid

How could he had continues the "invasion" the spring was bad the panonian steppe had floded (meaning steppe turned into marshes ) the cumans were revolting the winter had not been the best .

One source says that Batu retreated because of ogedie death what are the others aside from Carpine?
and his source has issues like , a messenger would have to be able to make the journey from Mongolia to Central Europe in a little over three months when the writer himself (who said he made in great speed on a much shorter distance took 5 )

As mentioned for hungary the mongols established themselves on steppes so hungary is the most logical choice, on where to center itself with the hre been like the Rus states as mentioned they can transition to another place .

As for mohi you said , ask king bela and I responded Batu would have lost many men or the battle had he acted sooner , as for sieges I Know you mentioned krakow yet I responded with 3 places that they didn't take , they can do them sure but then again with Batu raiding force his objetive was to pillage the cities which he failed .

And of course batu with his not invasion force , force ... Would have more trouble taking cities because and I repeat this is not an invasion force it's a raiding one therefore he doesn't have the men or equipment of na invasion force which makes things harder for him .
 
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[snip]

Without a major disagreement on your major points:

Maximum width of Volga River is 26km. Оn a level of Nizhi Novgorod it is over 500 meters, on Kazan level - over 1 km, in Yaroslavl region - 500-650 meters, on Volgograd level - 1-2km .

Dnieper in a lower flow is 500-600 meters on Kiev level - 400-600 meters

Danube at Budapest - 560 meters and in a lower flow up to 1km.

So the Mongols had been routinely crossing the major rivers comparable or wider than the Rhine.
It should be iterated that I did not say that the Mongols cannot float across a river or carry baggage across. Only that they lacked in many areas at different times, inability to face riverine fortifications against forces that they should have dominated in the field. This implies a weakness on their part and a benefit to realms and peoples who have sufficient riverine defense networks. One of the few areas that possess this in ample amounts similar to the Yangtze or the Gangwga strait, is the densely populated Rhine valley in Germany. Much like the Yangtze it is protected by fortress cities, which are followed by smaller local forts in between them. Further like the Yangtze in the direction behind the river, there is a large population providing resources, trade and manpower to outlast a challenger. It is for this reason that I made my post.
 
Secondly, I said he didn’t need other forces other his own.
Wow! He had 4,000 Mongols and the newly-subdued Kipchaks as his own troops and this would be enough for conquest of Europe? How that can be taken seriously?

Thirdly, Batu was not in great terms with Ogodei and his court so Batu was going to take the prize and keep it.

His "prize" was a designated domain of Jochi, which was ending in the Kipchak steppes. He could not held anything against the Great Khan's will because this would be a rebellion punished by death.

Overall for the end of the conquest the Mongol Empire will be engulfed in wars between various families and asking the Far way mongol court who is the ruler of Europe will be not necessary.
I wonder why Prince Yaroslav bothered to travel to Karakorum to have his status of the Great Prince of Vladimir confirmed....

No, It was an invasion, not a raid.
If something look like a duck and squeaks as a duck, it is probably a duck. The same goes for the raid. It was a raid.


Look, I didn’t say what center would have a Mongol State in Europe, I said that this state could conquest Europe.

There was a Mongolian state in Europe and it never was close to conquering territory outside Eastern Europe.

If you prefer Hungary, good for you, but this would not be limited only to Hungary and the rest of Europe “paying some tributes” and nothing else.
Well, the Mongolian vassal states had been paying tribute and providing the auxiliary contingents in the case of war. Nothing else in Russia, Georgia, Armenia Minor. So why would it suddenly be different in Germany?


I read your answer and now I have a headache.

Well, I'm sorry that you have a headache. Take some aspirin or whatever.

Evidently you didn’t read my message and continued your exposition from your pedantic seat. So I really don’t know how answer you and I will try:
- Batu was the designated heir of the eldest son of Gengis Khan, so one of the main princes of Mongol Empires.

Term "designated heir" does not make too much sense in the Mongolian apanage system where property of a father had been divided between his sons based upon the specific rules. Enough to say that his elder brother, Ordu, got already conquered part of Jochi's domain, Western Siberia (White Horde). Batu's domain had to be, yet, conquered and conquest had been done by the forces sent by the Great Khan. Batu was not even a formal commander of these forces until beginning of the Western Raid.


He was one of the more successful Mongol commanders.

Now, this is a complete nonsense. While there are records of the military proficiency of many Genghisid princes in this and other campaigns, the only military record related to Batu is his performance at Mohi, which is a questionable compliment. Batu was not a great commander, he was a great statesman and diplomat. The very fact that he accepted Subotai's rebuttal and publicly acknowledged that he was wrong, tells a lot.

The military brain of the whole expedition was Subotai. Most of the troops involved had been the contingents sent by the Great Khan. Batu did not, yet, have time to build up his own army based on the newly-conquered domain and, due to the fact that most of his own troops were going to be the Polovtsy (Kumans), their inability not only to conquer Europe but even to conduct the effective big scale raids into Hungary and Poland had been demonstrated during Nogai's life time. After the Western campaign Batu got himself busy building up his newly-created state, organizing its military force, controlling situation in the vassal Russian lands and being engaged in a political maneuvering which allowed him to survive through Guyik's reign and to help to elect Mongke with who he was on good terms. No major wars or conquests, just some punishing expeditions here and there.


- No, I understand perfectly the difference and I feel a little insulted by your insinuation. The point is that you considered the Batu/Subutai’s campaign a raid, but instead it was-I believe-the first step of a multiyear invasion of Europe.

The key word is "believe". You can believe whatever you want but your beliefs are not mandatory for everybody else.

- Again, I know what a steppe is and again I feel a little insulted by you.
If you know, than your earlier talk about the plains in Germany and elsewhere does not make sense. Should I be "insulted" by your earlier statement or by this one?

The point is: the Mongols were limited only to the steppes?

"Limited" in which sense? Their conquests had not been limited to the steppes but at that time they had been settling only in the steppes to preserve a nomadic life style. This was a part of Genghis testaments: people of the yurts had to keep themselves separately from the people of the houses.

In the CA there was plenty of steppe and a lot of the nomadic population. BTW, to keep up with the tradition, even Timur lived in a tent (in a middle of a luxurious park), not in the palace. The rulers of the "GH" started building their capital(s) and palaces but these were winter quarters: during the summer "everybody" was moving into the steppes. One of the alleged main reasons for Ilkhanate failure to keep Syria was a shortage of space suitable for keeping the horses (and other nomadic livestock). Hulagu himself spent his time living as a nomad in southern Azerbaijan and Armenia.

China and its conquest were a specific case but, AFAIK, there were no major Mongolian settlements in the midst of the China proper even if the Mongolian aristocracy started moving into the Chinese estates as early as during Ogdai's reign. But conquest of China was done, to a great degree by the non-Mongolian troops. Mukhali had at least as many local troops as he had Mongols and it is a known fact that even during the 1st Genghis' campaign in China there was a big cooperation from the "natives" subdued by the Jurchens. Armies used on the later stages had been seemingly even less Mongolian. Enough to say that Kublai had a whole tumen composed of the Russians.
 
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CalBear

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But not enough quickly and only about warfare, not state building, and they disappeared after Attila’s death. The Mongol Empire canonically lasted for 162 years, with his main successors States (Chagathai, Golden Horde, Yuan Dynasty, Ilkhanate) lasted longer. The author didn’t say specifically what was the POD, so it’s open: it could even be Ogodei died earlier a new, younger Great Khan (maybe Batu himself, he was almost elected in 1250), who avoids the vacancy during the invasion period.

Firstly, Hulegu invaded Middle East after Batu and Subotai invaded Europe. Secondly, I said he didn’t need other forces other his own. Thirdly, Batu was not in great terms with Ogodei and his court so Batu was going to take the prize and keep it. Overall for the end of the conquest the Mongol Empire will be engulfed in wars between various families and asking the Far way mongol court who is the ruler of Europe will be not necessary. Fourthly, please, put some points and commas, I have difficulty to read your sentences.

No, It was an invasion, not a raid.
No, he would have continue the invasion.
No, many sources tell us the opposite. al-Din disliked the Mongols, so maybe it’s better pondering carefully his words.
Look, I didn’t say what center would have a Mongol State in Europe, I said that this state could conquest Europe. If you prefer Hungary, good for you, but this would not be limited only to Hungary and the rest of Europe “paying some tributes” and nothing else.
I don’t understand why are you speaking about Mohi about a siege.
If you said “The Mongols can’t siege cities” and I quoted examples of the opposite you can’t quote other examples of failed sieges because your assumption is fallen in every case: I don’t say Mongols are invincible in sieges but that they can do them and do them successfully.
And please, points and commas, please.

I read your answer and now I have a headache. Evidently you didn’t read my message and continued your exposition from your pedantic seat. So I really don’t know how answer you and I will try:
- Batu was the designated heir of the eldest son of Gengis Khan, so one of the main princes of Mongol Empires. He was one of the more successful Mongol commanders. In 1250 the Kurultai offered him the Great Khan seat and he declined. And yes, you’re probably missing something.
- and as a cultured man you could make some research and find that the Mongol wing in Poland, led by Orda and composed only by a single tumen, had only the duty to cover right flank of the main army and make a recognition at German border. Then they had to reunite in Hungary before proceeding against Germany and France. But if you think that proceeding without communications with the rest of your army in an unknown enemy territory with only 10 000 soldiers is a good idea ask to Publius Varus. Using maps doesn’t mean knowing understand them.
- No, I understand perfectly the difference and I feel a little insulted by your insinuation. The point is that you considered the Batu/Subutai’s campaign a raid, but instead it was-I believe-the first step of a multiyear invasion of Europe.
- Again, I know what a steppe is and again I feel a little insulted by you. The point is: the Mongols were limited only to the steppes? No, of course, China was a not steppes, Persia was not steppes. So saying “Hungary is the only place where Mongols would have established themselves” is simply wrong.
Play the ball.
 
This itself is devastating for Western Europe, as we saw from Russia's diverted development, away from the Rus states to Muscovy's autocracy and extraction model. I have seen this across countries in my experience as a development economist. Whenever the biggest buck lies in taking a greater share of the rent seeking, you completely abolish all incentives to make the necessary compromises to allow wealth creation. Compromises with the nobility are set back in the monarchs favour, and free cities are completely screwed. The despot most willing to use violence comes out on top. And the disproportionate power going to the Mongol favored state means innovative governance models don't have room to survive.

And this is all before we get to the devastation of Europe's universities that kick started the renaissance.
I wish I had an idea what you are trying to say, especially as far as the "innovative governance" is involved.

In Russia "diverted development" was a continuation of the process which was already in place well before the Mongolian invasion (*) and an idea that an assembly of the weak feudal states quarrelling with each other and being the easy pray of their neighbors was something more advanced than a centralized state is going against the general European trends of which Russian one had been a part. As you may notice, some kind of an absolutist state had been created pretty much at the same time in Moscow (Ivan IV) and England (the Tudors). Even certain processes and political demagoguery were surprisingly close.

The free cities in Russia, Novgorod and Pskov, were not either completely or partially screwed until late XV - mid XVI century and prior to this they had been vulnerable to their neighbors, Livonians and Lithuanians, not to the Muscovite state. Witold was "protector of Novgorod" and Pskov had never ending quarrels with its Livonian neighbors.

Now, at least initially, the Mongolian tax was a regulated affair involving a census and assessment of the wealth (tribute amounted to a fixed percentage of a wealth), which was probably more progressive than the existing taxation/looting system. Of course, the local nobility/rulers had been using in to their advantage by extorting something for themselves but this was no different from the tax farming which existed in France under the Ancient Regime. Why was it prohibiting a wealth creation I have no idea.

(*) The rules of succession accepted in the XII century limited inheritance (and splitting of the land) to the father's domain thus basically limiting selection of the Great Prince of Vladimir to a single branch of the Rurikid family. The future Princes of Moscow belonged to this ruling branch. Getting in charge of the tax farming allowed accumulation of wealth and eventual consolidation of the territory. What's so bad about this?
 
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- No, I understand perfectly the difference and I feel a little insulted by your insinuation. The point is that you considered the Batu/Subutai’s campaign a raid, but instead it was-I believe-the first step of a multiyear invasion of Europe.
- Again, I know what a steppe is and again I feel a little insulted by you. The point is: the Mongols were limited only to the steppes? No, of course, China was a not steppes, Persia was not steppes. So saying “Hungary is the only place where Mongols would have established themselves” is simply wrong.
How does one differentiate a steppe from grasslands in terms of the effectiveness of grazing for horses? The Central Valley or Plain of China north of the Yangtze is famed for exceptional grazing opportunities for horses and the flat terrain that permits nomadic styled armies to operate there.

If Batu's campaign was part of a multiyear campaign, then I would suggest he was quite the poorly planned commander. Considering the failures of the Mongols elsewhere and breach of the policy of 'One War at a Time,' he was grossly overestimating his expertise and that of his army. I feel that though, this is something that the Mongols tended to overestimate in their campaigns at many occasions, drawing great inspiration from the campaign against the Khawarezmshahs.
 
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China is a far harder nut to crack and the Mongols managed that. Even if they couldn't figure out a way to deal with castles (seems unlikely to me) they would decimate Europe across the Northern European plain. Perhaps Italy is out but France will be wrecked. The surviving groups in each castle will likely set themselves up as petty kings with no central authority left.

As for the Popes, they have had form of crowning the most powerful Catholic prince as Roman Emperor, regardless of lack of pedigree.

Why is China a far harder nut to crack? We have seen several successful nomadic invasions of China, while the last successful nomadic invasion of Europe were the Indo-Europeans, the closest thing we have seen since were the Huns, but they set themselves up a tribute state ruling over Germanic and Alanic vassal with the Gepids serving as their enforcers and the moment they decided to alienate the Gepids, they stopped being a relevant force.
 
Why is China a far harder nut to crack? We have seen several successful nomadic invasions of China, while the last successful nomadic invasion of Europe were the Indo-Europeans, the closest thing we have seen since were the Huns, but they set themselves up a tribute state ruling over Germanic and Alanic vassal with the Gepids serving as their enforcers and the moment they decided to alienate the Gepids, they stopped being a relevant force.
The Huns were also not really like the Mongols. From what is known, the Huns were heavily enmeshed in Europe, held widespread support from the peoples across Central, Northern and Eastern Europe for reasons other than just might. According to legends and the accounts of the historians, the Huns had long intermingled with the peoples around them in royal marriage and were commanding a league of allied peoples who all sought to overrule Roman predominance in Europe. It was not at all comparable to the manner of the Mongols, who sought to simply invade lands without any connections to them or any framing prior to.

As such, the Huns an Mongol comparison is not all alike.

Regarding the toughness of China and Europe, I would agree. There is no reason that 'China' (which China in this case?) is a tougher foe.
 
The Huns were also not really like the Mongols. From what is known, the Huns were heavily enmeshed in Europe, held widespread support from the peoples across Central, Northern and Eastern Europe for reasons other than just might. According to legends and the accounts of the historians, the Huns had long intermingled with the peoples around them in royal marriage and were commanding a league of allied peoples who all sought to overrule Roman predominance in Europe. It was not at all comparable to the manner of the Mongols, who sought to simply invade lands without any connections to them or any framing prior to.

As such, the Huns an Mongol comparison is not all alike.

Regarding the toughness of China and Europe, I would agree. There is no reason that 'China' (which China in this case?) is a tougher foe.

But that‘s a pretty good example of the inability of nomads to make it farther than Hungary, they need local enforces to deliver infantry, people may talk about the North European plains, but it’s not really plains from nature’s side it’s a mix of swamps and forests, the moment we see a population collapse in the region, we see the forests spread fast (we’re talking about in a single decade), the moment the population increase the forest disappear again, but what replace them is not just farmland but also expansion of swamps and meadows in low lying region as the forest no longer capture water.
 
The question asked, which I am curious as well, is not how do they conquer western europe. But what are the effects, particularly cultural effects if that happens.

I am curious how Christianity would change in this scenario.
 
Yeah although all this discussion on the feasibility of the scenario is very interesting, the main thing that seems to be being asked here is what it’s effects would be if it did occur. I’d say that’s a pretty unlikely scenario, but it’s cultural effects could still be interesting to examine, as unlikely as it is. There has been a lot of discussion on whether or not it could happen, but not much on what the effects of it happening would be.
 
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