CSS Virginia doesn't fight the USS Monitor

Driftless

Donor
IF the USS Monitor founders at sea on the way to Hampton Roads, and the CSS Virginia has no match for months, what would have been the impact on ship design? Would the low-freeboard hull design used by the Monitor get crossed off as a failure? Would turret ships also take a hit compared to casemate or broadside ironclads? (even though the turret wouldn't have been the major problem in the Monitor not being seaworthy on the ocean)
 
The USS Galena (broadside ironclad) was commissioned on April 21, 1862. It's armor arrangement wasn't good, but it may have served as a placeholder. It took a pretty good pounding from Fort Darling at the Battle of Drewery's Bluff, and it survived.

USS_Galena_3.jpg

Hmm USS Galena versus CSS Virginia? Now there's an interesting match up!
 

Driftless

Donor
Hmm USS Galena versus CSS Virginia? Now there's an interesting match up!

I think the Virginia pounds the Galena, but based on Drewry's Bluff results, the battle could still end with the Galena afloat.

*edit* There would be an interesting after-battle analysis though
 
The big impact of such a POD is that McClellan's strategy of moving the Army of the Potomac to the Virginia Peninsula and moving against Richmond from the southeast is over. For if the Union cannot control the seas around Fort Monroe, the army cannot be safely transported.

McClellan also quickly comes to believe that the CSA has ten more ironclads ready to sail out and do battle. Based on this, he orders the evacuation of Washington.
 

bugwar

Banned
Fresh Meat

Hmm USS Galena versus CSS Virginia? Now there's an interesting match up!

Galena engaged the Confederate position for over three hours, until her ammunition was nearly exhausted.
Her fire was largely ineffective, although her shells did manage to kill seven and wound eight members of the battery.
In return, the ship was hit an estimated 44 times on her port side, of which 13 hits penetrated her armor and she had three large holes punched through her spar deck.
She suffered 13 crewmen killed and a further 11 wounded.”

“She was damaged during the Battle of Drewry's Bluff because her armor was too thin to prevent Confederate shots from penetrating.
Widely regarded as a failure, Galena was reconstructed without most of her armor in 1863 and transferred to the West Gulf Blockading Squadron in 1864.”


Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Galena_(1862)

Judging from that battle, it looks like Galena would be just another notch on Virginia’s belt.

01.jpg
 

Saphroneth

Banned
I actually wonder how Virginia would have done if she'd been expecting to fight Monitor. Virginia was loaded up for fighting wooden ships and as such mainly had explosive shot, which is no good for handling Monitor... but with the AP shot that there was? (Bolts, I think...) she might have acquitted herself better against Monitor.
You know, done a bit of visible damage.
 
IF the USS Monitor founders at sea on the way to Hampton Roads, and the CSS Virginia has no match for months, what would have been the impact on ship design? Would the low-freeboard hull design used by the Monitor get crossed off as a failure? Would turret ships also take a hit compared to casemate or broadside ironclads? (even though the turret wouldn't have been the major problem in the Monitor not being seaworthy on the ocean)

My guess is that the concept of low freeboard ironclads is scrapped completely for anything besides harbor defence. That they were useless in a non littoral situation wasn't an enormous impediment, but it made transporting them anywhere a nightmare in rough seas. There'd probably be something better done to improve her.

Galena engaged the Confederate position for over three hours, until her ammunition was nearly exhausted.
Her fire was largely ineffective, although her shells did manage to kill seven and wound eight members of the battery.
In return, the ship was hit an estimated 44 times on her port side, of which 13 hits penetrated her armor and she had three large holes punched through her spar deck.
She suffered 13 crewmen killed and a further 11 wounded.”

“She was damaged during the Battle of Drewry's Bluff because her armor was too thin to prevent Confederate shots from penetrating.
Widely regarded as a failure, Galena was reconstructed without most of her armor in 1863 and transferred to the West Gulf Blockading Squadron in 1864.”


Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Galena_(1862)

Judging from that battle, it looks like Galena would be just another notch on Virginia’s belt.

I'd imagine she probably wouldn't sink her outright, force her to port for serious repair is more likely I would think.

I actually wonder how Virginia would have done if she'd been expecting to fight Monitor. Virginia was loaded up for fighting wooden ships and as such mainly had explosive shot, which is no good for handling Monitor... but with the AP shot that there was? (Bolts, I think...) she might have acquitted herself better against Monitor.
You know, done a bit of visible damage.

Well she did smash Monitor's two turrets closed making her essentially useless. With steel shot bolts it might have sent her to the bottom if she got lucky, but she would have certainly done some good damage and forced her in for repairs.
 

bugwar

Banned
Bigger Boom!

I actually wonder how Virginia would have done if she'd been expecting to fight Monitor. Virginia was loaded up for fighting wooden ships and as such mainly had explosive shot, which is no good for handling Monitor... but with the AP shot that there was? (Bolts, I think...) she might have acquitted herself better against Monitor.
You know, done a bit of visible damage.

Sort of like what would have happened in reverse if the Monitor had double charged their guns.
At the time of the battle, the Union ironclad was using half-charges in the belief that any more would risk bursting the cannons.
Later tests would show that they could have used up to twice the powder safely.
 

Driftless

Donor
I actually wonder how Virginia would have done if she'd been expecting to fight Monitor. Virginia was loaded up for fighting wooden ships and as such mainly had explosive shot, which is no good for handling Monitor... but with the AP shot that there was? (Bolts, I think...) she might have acquitted herself better against Monitor.
You know, done a bit of visible damage.

Conversely, what would have happened to the Virginia's armor if either exploding shells, or the equivalent of AP shot were fired at some distance, striking the sides at a more perpendicular angle? That's a straight up question: I don't have a solid answer for that one.

The commanders of the Monitor & Virginia didn't know either, I'd bet. They were working off the old school playbook and improvising as they went.
 
What happens if the Federal ironclad sinks before the battle?
Well the CSA Virginia effectively runs rampant, finishes off the USS Minnesota, and lifts the blockade. A hundred and fifty years later enthusiasts on internet forums still furiously debate over what would have happened had the USS Monitor not sunk on the way to Hampton Roads. However since the Virginia likewise foundered and sunk whilst being relocated a short while after the battle the British board members look on during these debates with a detached slightly superior attitude pointing out that both sides ships, and monitors in general, were rubbish and that HMS Warrior and HMS Black Prince were obviously massively superior and would have blown either out of the water if a conflict had ever occurred. ;)


But surely by that logic the US ships from the Revolutionary War didn't even have a name until the Treaty of Paris?Frankly I think it's kind of sour grapes. I mean, it's equally valid to consider the Merrimack sunk and the Virginia an entirely new ship built on her dredged up bones.
Considering that the USS Merrimack was burnt to the waterline, abandoned and then left to sink with the Confederacy raising her wouldn't that then give them ownership of her thanks to maritime salvage rights?


The 1862 version of a Transformer? :rolleyes:
Dastardly and Muttley in Their Flying Machines, aka. Catch the Pigeon, more like. :)
 

bugwar

Banned
The Shelling of the White House and Capitol

Speculating on some tasks for the CSS Virginia after clearing out Hampton Roads, she could cruise on up to D.C. and bombard a number of targets;
the Navy Yard (from a distance), the Capitol and the White House.

Of course, that requires that she first clear out the U.S. Navy, so it may take a month or two of shuttle runs to actually get to the strategic targets.

White%20House%20Burned%201814.jpg
 
Speculating on some tasks for the CSS Virginia after clearing out Hampton Roads, she could cruise on up to D.C. and bombard a number of targets; the Navy Yard (from a distance), the Capitol and the White House.
Ouch. What does that do for the US' reputation and the CSA's standing internationally? There's also the question of internal politics - Lincoln is safe for another two years but both the Senate and House of Representatives have elections later that year. Does the shelling of Washington give the Copperheads a boost or anger voters enough that it potentially harms them do people think?

Aside from breaking the Union blockade a roving CSS Virginia could if not return the favour, her not being able to be in multiple places at once, go potentially go visit the US' main ports like Philadelphia or Boston and bombard their harbours.
 

bugwar

Banned
Virginia Joins the Monitor

Aside from breaking the Union blockade a roving CSS Virginia could if not return the favour, her not being able to be in multiple places at once, go potentially go visit the US' main ports like Philadelphia or Boston and bombard their harbours.

Two possible problems with that:

One, Does the Virginia have the cruising range to get to Boston?

Two, the Confederate ironclad is about as sea-worthy as the Monitor.
Get caught in a storm while traveling and the Southern warship ends up parked next to the Yankee one at Davy Jones Locker.

5.jpg
 

TFSmith121

Banned
CSS Virginia wasn't even as seaworthy as USS Monitor, however;

What happens when you show up for a fight, and the opponent doesn't? The CSS Virginia was busy sinking the Union fleet at Hampton Roads when the USS Monitor showed up. While sailing down from New York, the USS Monitor almost foundered before arriving to meet the Virginia. What happens if the Federal ironclad sinks before the battle?

Except that CSS Virginia is underpowered, overweight, close to unmanageable, and has the freeboard of a Boston whaler; other than that, it's brilliant.:rolleyes:

After her conversion to an ironclad, Virginia wasn't even as seaworthy as USS Monitor, however; she was more of a harbor defense vessel than Monitor, actually. Monitor's officers and men could actually contemplate a coastal voyage; Virginia's could not.

As it is, the US blockaders can withdraw to the entrance of Chesapeake Bay and still have control over any shipping attempting to get in or out of Norfolk in what would amount to the 1862 version of a distant blockade, and Virginia may as well be beached.

See below:



There's also the minor point that Virginia can barely make headway as it is in a flat calm; steaming east from Hampton Roads toward Cape Henry takes her into actual seas, which the USN's ocean-going steamers can easily cope with, but she cannot...

Likewise, steaming north toward the Potomac is unlikely to end well; aside from the realities of the US fortifications on the river, there's the minor point the river simply gets shallower and shallower the farther west or north one travels, and there's a southern-flowing current.

Trying to take Virginia north up the Bay does little; Baltimore is very well defended, and along with the obvious operational issues, the Bay simply gets narrower and more difficult to navigate, and Virginia gets more and more vulnerable to swarm attacks by small craft, in less and less water, and with more and more vulnerability to shore batteries and the like - think Blucher in Oslofjord.

Virginia makes Monitor's seakeeping abilities look good.

Best,
 
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