CSA

I'm the first to admit I'm a newbie to this here alternate history thingy, but there's something that's always bothered me about perhaps the most cliche of all AHs.

Currently, some of the United Kingdom's closest allies are the Commonwealth and the United States of America, both formerly part of its empire. Why then, can't a surviving Confederacy be on relatively good terms with the US? It seemed the vast majority of timelines have them as diehard enemies to the bitter end, and that's something I never quite got.

Edit: Sorry, should this be in the other forum? I'm not sure whether the "1900" refers to the POD or the general setting.
 
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I'm the first to admit I'm a newbie to this here alternate history thingy, but there's something that's always bothered me about perhaps the most cliche of all AHs.

Currently, some of the United Kingdom's closest allies are the Commonwealth and the United States of America, both formerly part of its empire. Why then, can't a surviving Confederacy be on relatively good terms with the US? It seemed the vast majority of timelines have them as diehard enemies to the bitter end, and that's something I never quite got.

Winston Churchill, What if the South had not won the Battle of Gettysburg. Anglosphere union by 1914.

But yeah, your general point is taken. You'd have to ask a Yank.
 
Because its more interesting to have two enemies side by side, and almost 150 years of propaganda has painted the CSA bad to the majority of Americans.
 

Susano

Banned
Well, it took quite some time until Anglo-Americna relationships reahced the current level, though. And Americas across the ocean, so theres even much less space for tension building up! Not to mention that the American Revolutionary War was less desructive to Britain than the ACW was to the USA. And in any case, in the ARW it were only colonies revolting, not parts of the country proper.

Really, given all that, I dont think you can really compare the situations. USA and CSA will coexist geographcialyl side by side, with the underpinning ideologcial divides still lingering and surely much bitterness on either side. And unlike GB, which was busy with Europe anyways, the USA will focus its foreign policy on the CSA... and surely not in a a good way.

Hence, goven all that, Id even say its an AH cliche how often USA and CSA reconsole just so! That happens quite often - too often, IMO.
 
I'm the first to admit I'm a newbie to this here alternate history thingy, but there's something that's always bothered me about perhaps the most cliche of all AHs.

Currently, some of the United Kingdom's closest allies are the Commonwealth and the United States of America, both formerly part of its empire. Why then, can't a surviving Confederacy be on relatively good terms with the US? It seemed the vast majority of timelines have them as diehard enemies to the bitter end, and that's something I never quite got.

Edit: Sorry, should this be in the other forum? I'm not sure whether the "1900" refers to the POD or the general setting.

Interesting take on this. And actually, if you look at old enough CSA wins AH, it usually involves some form of unification or friendship. On the other hand, there are numerous problems. There is revaunchism. There are the differences in ideologies (industrial first-rate power vs. agrarian, stratified breakaway state), differences over slavery, opprotunism, conflict over Latin America... There are just so many things that can and will easily derail relations between the two states.

And about the forum choice. The usual rule is before and After 1900 refers to POD. However, there are a few (rather rare) exceptions. Usually, that is posted when an event happens near the end of a forum's timespan but the effects concentrate in the next one. For example, a change in 1898 which does not start to really impact events until 1910 would go here. This thread, however, probably should be in pre-1900 because it involves some rather drastic changes to the geopolitical balance of power. Just a note.

Because its more interesting to have two enemies side by side, and almost 150 years of propaganda has painted the CSA bad to the majority of Americans.

While I agree with the first half of your post regarding two enemies, can you give some example for the second half? Certainly, the CSA is painted badly today, but that does not make it's portrayal propoganda nor the creation more just. While the modern US is by no means a utopia, I can say with a high degree of certainty that it would far rather live in the modern OTL us then in a slave-owning plutocracy like the CSA.
 
Well, it took quite some time until Anglo-Americna relationships reahced the current level, though. And Americas across the ocean, so theres even much less space for tension building up! Not to mention that the American Revolutionary War was less desructive to Britain than the ACW was to the USA. And in any case, in the ARW it were only colonies revolting, not parts of the country proper.

Really, given all that, I dont think you can really compare the situations. USA and CSA will coexist geographcialyl side by side, with the underpinning ideologcial divides still lingering and surely much bitterness on either side. And unlike GB, which was busy with Europe anyways, the USA will focus its foreign policy on the CSA... and surely not in a a good way.

Hence, goven all that, Id even say its an AH cliche how often USA and CSA reconsole just so! That happens quite often - too often, IMO.

Susano

You raise some good points about the fact Britain and US have an ocean between them - leaving aside Canada. Also that its nearly as much a cliche the US and CSA uniting as existing in prepetual enmity.

However I'm not sure that a couple of your other points are valid. For instance to many Britons, along with many colonials the latter were very much part of Britain. They didn't have representation in the London Parliament, nor pay any real taxes but they were very much a part of the wider British community.

At the risk of being see as strongly anti-American I think part of the problem is American exclusiveness. A proportion of them see themselves as a special people set apart. As such, while you mention the period before good relations existed between Britain and the US, this was predominantly on the US side. Britain, despite being the defeated power was relatively quickly looking to improve relations. In scenarios with an independent CSA it is generally the US that is the one that refuses to accept the existence of its neighbour. [Actually I'm not sure this would be the case. Although, baring something very dramatic, the CSA will be significantly weaker than the USA I suspect it would also inherit some of the US feeling of being special and apart. Therefore I could see an independent CSA being rather prickly and verbally hostile even in a situation when the USA might be seeking to improve relations.

Steve
 
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